Choppers: some observations

[Hurrul]

I don't have a kukri, but I have come to find that 3/16" to 1/4" re-curve blades with their more weight forward balance pack a good punch in harder material.

Personally for me, 9 to 12 in blades are the sweet spot for heavy, thick spine choppers:

Ontario Gen 2 SP-52, 10" blade at 1/4" stock with full height primary grind.

Bill Siegle one-off - blade is just under 9", which is almost not long enough for my taste, but it performs well enough and packs well due to being a bit more compact. Again, a full height primary really helps the thick blade bite more.

But, a re-curve edge does make a difference, especially right behind the start if the outward/downward curve of the blade - the added weight of the broader forward part of the blade excels at increasing momentum so that when you hit that spot just behind the broad part of the blade, the upward start of the blade grabs and bites material, biting aggressively...if that makes sense....

Fiddleback Forge 12" machete. May be 3/32" stock, but the lack of a primary taper down to edge, leaves some weight to the blade and it does pretty well on harder conifer material. Easier to sharpen than the 2 above, as my skills sharpening a re-curve edge are a bit weak.

 

[JamesofArc]

I love choppers, my first was a 1968 Triumph TR6R with a Bonneville head on a Savior hard tail frame........o, you mean blade choppers.

I started with a Mexican trade knife with a D handle. The steel was good enough to bust thru logs while bottoning but did not keep an edge.
Then i was introduced to the BK9 and things changed. Now i was chopping over trees and debranching them for shelter and sometimes just for fun

I then dreamed about the Browning Competition but never got it but then i got an Ontario SP10 Marine Raider and i found my front line chopper. There are others that chop better but the SP10 is better all around and you can cut your steak with it too.

I tried a Schrad 18 inch machete that i got for 12 bucks but it snapped on about the 4th chop.

I like a chopper knife for short term survival and as a lighter choice to a full size ax and i think my SP10 takes less energy to use than a hatchet.

To me machetes are for south American jungles and north American hard wood forest need an ax or chopper knife.

If I ever get another chopper there is a golok at my local Duluth store i may try or I may get my daughter a Jerezz chopper.

Love my Ontario SP10 Marine Raider though, its a great knife.

 

[DocJD]

I've used both a Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri and the Trail Master quite a bit . They will both do a fair job chopping and are relatively cheap for what you get .

The Trail Master is easier to carry and more versatile IMO . I've cut down 4 to 5" hardwood trees with an O-1 model TM , but it wasn't easy or fun .

But as I stated above , if you got a lot of serous work to do , an axe and / or saw is much more efficient . YMMV !

 

[MtnHawk1]

In my case I am looking for balance between portability (OAL and weight) as well as chopping power
I also want the knife to be able to baton as well as other camp tasks

These are my requirements, also. If I was using a vehicle for transportation I could carry all kinds of cutting and chopping tools, including hatchets, axes, chainsaws, or whatever, but since I carry everything in the wilderness on my back I always look for edged tools that can be used for multiple purposes, with minimal weight and bulk. A big wood-chopping knife is not the perfect tool in all ways, but it satisfies my requirements the best, by far.

To me machetes are for south American jungles and north American hard wood forest need an ax or chopper knife.

I agree

shortwinger, I think the Trail Master is a nice knife but prefer a wider blade for chopping, and don't care much for their handles. The BK9 looks good, but a finger choil would make the knife much more versatile, IMO. Probably wouldn't be too difficult to grind one out, though.

ScooterG, thanks for your feedback on the Carothers Medium Chopper. I just discovered the company a month or so ago and like what I see.

 

[Revolverrodger]

I agree that the CPK knives are awesome
I’m not to much of a fan of choils but it’s not a deal breaker for me

These are my requirements, also. If I was using a vehicle for transportation I could carry all kinds of cutting and chopping tools, including hatchets, axes, chainsaws, or whatever, but since I carry everything in the wilderness on my back I always look for edged tools that can be used for multiple purposes, with minimal weight and bulk. A big wood-chopping knife is not the perfect tool in all ways, but it satisfies my requirements the best, by far.



I agree

shortwinger, I think the Trail Master is a nice knife but prefer a wider blade for chopping, and don't care much for their handles. The BK9 looks good, but a finger choil would make the knife much more versatile, IMO. Probably wouldn't be too difficult to grind one out, though.

ScooterG, thanks for your feedback on the Carothers Medium Chopper. I just discovered the company a month or so ago and like what I see.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

After using several CPK knives including their choppers ... they are built for multi purpose use ... and it is surprising just well even the 10" Medium Chopper can almost anything a smaller knife can ... within reason of course ...

And I can take or leave a choil it depends on the knife or my intended uses ... but on the CPK bigger knives from the HDFK up to the MC aka 10" medium chopper ... (I have not handled anything larger from CPK) ... but the choil allows me to shave wood for kindling and do tasks you wouldn't think a knife that size can do pretty darn well ...

 

[MtnHawk1]

the choil allows me to shave wood for kindling and do tasks you wouldn't think a knife that size can do pretty darn well ...

Exactly! That's why I like them. They make a large knife much more versatile, in my experience, and add a lot to the performance of even my 4.5" blade knives. I'm surprised there aren't finger choils on many more fixed-blade knives, especially the larger ones. I can't think of any disadvantages they have, only advantages.

The Bark River Crusader 3V looks like it would be a good chopper. Anybody have any experience with it?

 

[Revolverrodger]

I’m still tweaking my design and hope to make it as multi functional as possible

Exactly! That's why I like them. They make a large knife much more versatile, in my experience, and add a lot to the performance of even my 4.5" blade knives. I'm surprised there aren't finger choils on many more fixed-blade knives, especially the larger ones. I can't think of any disadvantages they have, only advantages.

The Bark River Crusader 3V looks like it would be a good chopper. Anybody have any experience with it?

 

[Currawong]

After using several CPK knives including their choppers ... they are built for multi purpose use ... and it is surprising just well even the 10" Medium Chopper can almost anything a smaller knife can ... within reason of course ...

This idea of multi-purpose chopper design is what interests me. If you want just a chopper - it doesn't need to have any other qualities than just chopping power - then as has been mentioned you use an axe or a chainsaw. The entire purpose of a chopping knife over those other tools is to allow you to do something else as well that you can't do with the specialist tools - game processing, utility, food prep, belt carry, safety, etc.

So the most interesting questions for me aren't 'what makes a good chopper' but 'what makes a good chopper that also let's you do x,y,z other task reasonably well' ? Because usually the two qualities you're talking about are generally trade-offs against each other and force a bunch of design choices and compromises.

E.g. What is a good design for a chopper / brush cutter that also allows it to be a decent pig-sticking knife? You want weight for a chopper but thin and pointy for a sticker.... hard to do both, but it can be done.

Or e.g. what is a good chopper that can also gut or skin or process meat reasonably well?

Or what is the best chopper design that also allows you to comfortably belt carry?

Anyway in my knife collecting I've shifted from seeking out the best choppers to seeking out the best chopper I can find in each of these kinds of categories.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I'm thinking about another prototype of 12.5" large knife. Where it must be competent/good at

chop: able fell up to 10" dia tree faster than average chopper
baton: up to 4" dia/cross-section wood
kitchen: push cutting like a tall petty
game: dress/skin/butcher games

specs: ~1/8-3/16" thick, 2.5" tall at widest(chop area), 12.5" edge, 18" total length, 18-22 oz, concussion 7" from tip, 3" chop belly, 5" petty, 4" baton recurve. When using 3/16" thick, petty will be taper, baton area blade will be narrower (preserve concussion point). HRC depends on batoning duty: ~63rc light, 61-62rc heavy. Will use either O1 and or A2 for this prototype.

 

[Backyard]

I've made a number of different choppers and have made several observations about them.

The ones that cut well and don't get stuck often are convex or hollow ground. You have to be careful with the steepness of the grind. Too close to a flat, or a very shallow hollow grind bind. What you are looking for is a minimum of contact surface between the blade and wood. A flat or saber grind will leave a large surface in contact with the cut causing it to get stuck.

Inversely, an aggressive hollow or convex won't cut well either. Too much of a wedging action vs depth of cut to knock out chunks of wood.

Another point that I often forget to take into account when drawing up my blades is to think of the nodal points. The ones with the best point of impact being several inches (depending on blade length) bite the deepest. Too close to the center of the blade and loose energy on slower velocity. To close to the tip and controlling handle vibration becomes a problem. I find about 1/4 to 1/3 of the blade length from the tip seems to work best for maximum energy delivered vs user comfort.

As to safety, when cutting branches or small trees. I believe a chopper or machete will be safer then an axe. Especially to the inexperienced. With an axe one has only several inches of blade to aim at the branch. Many seem to be overly cautious of over reaching the branch and hitting the handle, possibly breaking it. This can lead to missing the target and ending up with a wild "follow through" possiblity hitting a foot or shin, etc. With a long blade aim and missing becomes much less of a concern. There is less weight on the end of a stick like an axe so proficiency can be gained quicker

The one I keep going back to when doing chopping chores is my rustic heavy chopper

because the nodal point is just behind the hump in the blade and it cuts deep without getting stuck often. I haven't been much of a fan of hollow grinds until I made this one.

For light weight, vines, saplings and small branches a thiner lighter blade seems to be best. What you want is speed. These smaller branches dond have much support or stiffness so they just move about. Speed will cut through them before they move out of the way.

So depending on the type of cutting a heavy chopper or light machete, or even an axe will be best. But since making my own heavy choppers, I rarely ever find I need an axe. Plus it is a lot easier to carry. If it's to large for my chopper the I get the chainsaw out unless it's splitting logs, then it's almost always done with an axe

 

[Currawong]

I'm thinking about another prototype of 12.5" large knife. Where it must be competent/good at

chop: able fell up to 10" dia tree faster than average chopper
baton: up to 4" dia/cross-section wood
kitchen: push cutting like a tall petty
game: dress/skin/butcher games

specs: ~1/8-3/16" thick, 2.5" tall at widest(chop area), 12.5" edge, 18" total length, 18-22 oz, concussion 7" from tip, 3" chop belly, 5" petty, 4" baton recurve. When using 3/16" thick, petty will be taper, baton area blade will be narrower (preserve concussion point). HRC depends on batoning duty: ~63rc light, 61-62rc heavy. Will use either O1 and or A2 for this prototype.

Would love to see this!

What grind? What steel? What HRC?

 

[Kailash Blades]

We've been making choppers for a long time and using them for even longer than that and there's a lot of great discussion going on in this thread.
OP is right that thinner grinds bite deeper but are also prone to binding but it all really depends on the kind of wood you're chopping. You'd think that blades optimised for hardwoods would need to have a thicker grind but in my experience because your chops penetrate less deeply you can get away with a leaner grind (assuming you have decent geometry and steel).
We all know khukuris are awesome, but does anyone here have issues batonning with them? I've not struggled but a lot of customers have said that they aren't as easy or intuitive to work with.
What do you think?

 

[Kailash Blades]

Double post, sorry about that

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

To me machetes are for south American jungles and north American hard wood forest need an ax or chopper knife.

As a Mainer, I vehemently disagree. Some of the hardest woods in the world are found in South American jungles, and in the North we have a wide range of potential targets that need to be tackled, ranging from chest-high tick-filled grasses and bramble thickets that can be over your head, all the way to full blown trees, and everything in between. Even fairly light machetes can be pressed into hard wood-chopping if need be, but a lot of it is simply in good pattern selection and using proper technique. Chopping away with one with a locked wrist like you might with a hammer or axe isn't the way to do it--it's a rolling snap of the fingers, wrist, and elbow that "casts" the mass of the tip. You can generate incredible force this way, and as I mentioned previously, if you're getting the blade buried deep enough that it binds, just don't swing that hard -- do more with less effort. An axe is the tool to use if doing dedicated felling or splitting, but I rarely find myself in situations where those are my only targets to contend with. Try clearing a site for a tent with an axe in some of the areas up here and it's an exercise in futility.

 

[medcommander]

As an outdoorsman in North Carolina I often recommend that people replace their machetes & hatchets with a sturdy stick. Brush beaten back has a tendency to "stick" to itself and stay out of the way. Cutting brush requires more effort & tends to make brush snap out and catch a hold of you. A long sharp machete is nice and versatile providing enough length to keep your away from what you're cutting and lengthening the moment arm (not sure if correct term?) of the swing. For more intense land clearing work may I suggest a Bushhog or Weedeater with brush blade attachment?

 

[afishhunter]

I wonder how many people would recommend a hatchet or axe, instead of a big chopping knife, if they had to actually carry that additional weight and bulk in the wilderness themselves

I do. I've also been known to carry a bow saw out into the boonies, along with the axe.
I was taught at a young age to use the right tool for the job.
IMHO knives are for cutting stuff.
None of the "old timers" (Nessmuk, Kepheart, et-al) used their knives for chopping or splitting their firewood.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I found grind and edge geometry: [sub 2-4.5dps; sub 15 dps; sub 0.015; for cut], [5.5 dps; 20 dps; 0.02" good for general chop], [7 dps; 25dps; 0.03" for baton]. This kitchopper proto will has common edge bevel 18dps, edge thick [cut,chop,baton = 0.015, 0.020, 0.025"]. Grind dps [cut,chop,baton=4,5,7].

I will use 3/16" thick A2 (steel is arriving today) for this 2nd revised prototype, target edge hardness ~63rc . With good result, will adjust profile then proto using either or both Aebl & 440B. After kitchopper profile is cut, I will post it in CWF thread. Currently I'm working on compact kitchoppers (~3/16 thick, 9" edge, 1.5" wide) - mostly for testing ht 4.0, for steels [a8mod,8670,80cvr2,52100,O1,3V,D2].

Would love to see this!

What grind? What steel? What HRC?

Effective design and specs should tailor for majority usage strike/attack angle [vertical down (zero degrees) to +- 120*]. Heavy is effective for +- 45* and also leverage gravity assisted speed. Material moisture level (fresh to dried), density, twist degrees, mobility (rigid vs moveable like vine), .. where speed must exceed impulse force threshold (penetrate must greater/faster than material deflection). Impact contact area and profile ideally maintain high psi - curve/belly is better than flat. Length provides better reach and could generates more speed however reduce strike rate. Safety, ease of use, maintainability, carry, versatility, etc.. are all factors to consider as well.

Kitchopper tries to cover (hybrid/trade-off): sufficient weight; speed; high psi impact area; .. note - petty area will be stout enough for vine and small branches and small bones and able to support ~60-70% chop energy. Initially I call this design 'jungle knife' = one thriving knife in jungle.

 

[Ryanol]

I've got grasso bolos - 2 & 3 from bark river. Both chop quite well and if i keep em out of the dirt have held there own as far as rolling or chipping. Usually i grab one of these if i have to do some light limbing or trail maintenance at the cabin.

 

[Shotgun]

I do. I've also been known to carry a bow saw out into the boonies, along with the axe.
I was taught at a young age to use the right tool for the job.
IMHO knives are for cutting stuff.
None of the "old timers" (Nessmuk, Kepheart, et-al) used their knives for chopping or splitting their firewood.

Chopper knives are older then those “old timers.” They most likely turned their noses up at them because they did different things(we don’t have to cut several trees down just to strike camp for instance) or because of the social stigma around “Bowie knives” at the time. Large working knives go WAY back.

I would say if you NEED an axe and a bow saw then you’ve brought the wrong tools entirely unless playing lumberjack is your hobby. Which it is to a lot of people and that’s cool.