Chris Caracci on Liner Locks and Emersons.......

Originally posted by komondor
Some have chosen to state that the Axis lock can easily close on one's fingers. Boy, would I love to see this proven. It can't.


The Axis lock is a superior design to the liner lock in combat situations. To me, this is simple to understand.

Komodor: In the heat of 'High Stress incidents', Mr. Murphy always has a way of rearing his ugly head. That I know from experience. NEVER say "never"! As far as "combat situations" , I'm curious as to how many combat situations you have been in to make such a definite comparison between the two locking modes. There is quite a difference between training and the actual 'thing'.

FYI, I own an Axis lock too...
 
Originally posted by RAYE


Komodor: In the heat of 'High Stress incidents', Mr. Murphy always has a way of rearing his ugly head. That I know from experience. NEVER say "never"! As far as "combat situations" , I'm curious as to how many combat situations you have been in to make such a definite comparison between the two locking modes. There is quite a difference between training and the actual 'thing'.

FYI, I own an Axis lock too...

I never said "NEVER." You need to read more carefully.

I am also curious as to how there is a significant threat of an Axis lock failing, being disengaged, more than other types of locking mechanisms. I fully realize anything can happen in a fight. Looking at an Axis lock it would appear, by all reasons of logic and statistical likelihood, that it would be extremely unlikely for the button to be disengaged by the operator, and a much greater risk of a liner lock failing from spine contact with an object would significantly be higher. And like I said, it would be just as likely your operating hand is going to slide over the hilt of a knife than it would manually disengage an Axis lock.

Please explain to me, Raye, how an Axis lock can easily close by unintentionally disengaging the button. I want to see this.

So you ask how many combat situations I have been in. This doesn't appear to be a combat situation observation as much as a logistical observation.
 
I have yet to have a liner lock fail while I was using a knife with one. Whether cutting or practicing, not one has failed. I have been able to induce a failure by doing the old spine whack. I have had one of the new locks fail one me. It was a a rolling lock on a SIFU. I was doing some solo practice when just as i was finishing a downward slash, the blade closed on my hand. There wasn't a deep cut, but there was still a cut. I haven't been able to figure out what happned. My only guess is that a finger hit the lock button and released it.

I had really been excited about the prospect of an Axis AFCK when CJ voiced his concern about the Axis lock, I started thinking about and I have to agree with him. If you have a locking mechanism that is exposed on the surface of the handle, you run the risk of coming in contact with it while using the knife. Especially in a dynamic situation like self defense. For me personally, I am going to stick with a liner lock, frame lock and possible the Spyderco Compression lock. I also haven't found a knife design with an Axis lock that offers a good finger notch.
 
Originally posted by Dirk
I have yet to have a liner lock fail while I was using a knife with one.
Hopefully you won't ;)

My only guess is that a finger hit the lock button and released it.
May be the lock failed? After all there were other reports regarding rolling lock problems?

If you have a locking mechanism that is exposed on the surface of the handle, you run the risk of coming in contact with it while using the knife.
Ok, agree, there is a risk to come in contact. Now, how about the liner locks? Aren't you in constant contact with the liner?

I've seen a lot of messages here regarding differnt liner lock failures, roling lock failures, and I have yet to see frame lock or axis lock problem. To me the question is how would it [liner lock] be more reliable in combat or self-defence situation than the later 2, if it has problems more frequently in everyday use?
 
Originally posted by komondor
It can't.



Komodor:

No matter how you look at it, this statement seems pretty definitive to me. BTW, I'm not trying to get into any type of pi$$ing match, I just believe that every mechanical instrument has it's weaknesses, including the AXIS lock. To date, I have never experienced a liner-lock failure (in a higher quality made knife). But then again, I don't go around smashing the spines of my knives against tables around the house.
 
OK, I'll plunk my .02 down on the perverbial round table. I have never been in a SOF or anything remotely similar but I have used the heck out of knives in my former occupation. I agree with Mr. Carracci.
I had a Spyderco Endura lockback disengage on me due to grip, causing the blade to fold across my digits. After that I switched to liner lock folders and have never looked back. That was about 10 years ago.
IMHO, the thing about liner locks that make them safer is the fact that in order to disengage the liner the knife really has to twist in one's grip or visa versa to make the lock disengage. This seems less common than simply applying down pressure on a lockback mechanism or sliding a finger across a exposed button on the handle.
Larry Chew makes a great liner lock that sits just below the handle scales. It takes a little more work to disengage it but then again, I guess that's the point.
 
We can sit here and argue until we are blue in the face, but here is the bottom line:

Every single type of folding knife has certain design characteristics which imply to the user not to do certain things. One thing one wouldn't do with an Axis lock is choke way up to the top of the handle, where the button sits, and keep you thumb on the button. There are many, many other ways to hold this knife. There is a valid reason why notches are sometimes cut into the bottom and top of the liners on some knives, including the Axis (710, anyways). It is because one would feel more comfortable with thumb and index finger on the top and bottom liners, respectively, and not on the scales. (Stabbing and backslashing.) For slashing motions, one would have more than enough room on the scales to not be dangerously close to the button.

I am really beginning to wonder if many of the Axis lock detractors in this thread have actually held an Axis lock. It would require, as I have stated earlier, many specific motions to disengage the button. This is a very difficult thing to do unintentionally. This is why I keep saying show me proof that it would be an easy thing to do. No one can.

The fact of the matter remains, again try to refute me, that a liner lock is far more likely to close from mechanical failure due to spine contact, especially in a combat situation, than an Axis lock will close from operator error.
 
Gator, all of my liner locks are recessed below the scale. If they aren't made that way, I modify them.

As far as using the Axis lock, I had a 710 for awhile, but I didn't like the fact that my hand would easily slide up the handle when I practiced with it and it just didn't feel good in my hand. So far, I have yet to handle an Axis lock knife that has felt comfy in my hand or have seen one that offers a deep enough finger notch that will help keep the hand from sliding forward.

If a knife design is offered that feels good in my hand, has a good finger notch and has an Axis lock, I would be willing to give it a try. Until then, based on my personal experience, I see no need to give up on the liner lock.
 
Originally posted by komondor
The fact of the matter remains, again try to refute me, that a liner lock is far more likely to close from mechanical failure due to spine contact, especially in a combat situation, than an Axis lock will close from operator error.

Are you basing any part of your opinion on the "Spine Wack Test?"
 
This seems the right time to relay my experience...

I've personally had a problem with the Axis lock, and I freely admit I've never heard anyone else having the same trouble, but due to the open nature of the design it's obvious to me at least, that it could happen again!

Basically, a piece of pocket fluff got into the back of the Axis lock, and stopped the Axis lock bar (sorry, don't know the technical name) from engaging the blade fully, in other words it wouldn't lock open until I removed the fluff with a screwdriver and some tweezers.

So yeah, a liner lock may be more likely to fail under stressful conditions, but an Axis lock knife has potential to not even lock open...
 
Donnie-boy: are you ignoring my post because you realize that, in fact, you're a blind little bastid (most likely from too many nights alone with Mary Palm and her 5 sisters)? Or could it be that you see that Ken and I are right, and all that "it looks NOTHING like a civilian" stuff in the chat room was just temporary insanity? Don't worry - you can admit you're wrong. We won't laugh at ya.... much. :D
 
Originally posted by Don Rearic


Are you basing any part of your opinion on the "Spine Wack Test?"

Loosely on a spine wack test, but more directly on the fact that a liner lock stands a good chance of closing when the knife spine or top of blade takes a heavy impact and rattles the mechanics of the knife.
 
Originally posted by Dirk
Gator, all of my liner locks are recessed below the scale. If they aren't made that way, I modify them.
I see. None of mine are recessed and I have no skills to do that.

So far, I have yet to handle an Axis lock knife that has felt comfy in my hand or have seen one that offers a deep enough finger notch that will help keep the hand from sliding forward.
I assume that has nothing to do with the lock strength reliability.

Until then, based on my personal experience, I see no need to give up on the liner lock.
:) Well, matter of taste.

My point is that I've seen number of posts on this very forum stating liner lock failure, whether that was a spine whack, handle twist, or something else, and 0 posts indicating Axis failure under normal use or the same spine whack or twisting. Donno about Axis combat use, haven't seen those reports (as well as liner locks).

Anyway, given all those facts I have hard time believing that liner lock will be more reliable in combat use, which supposedly will be harsher and more stressful [compared to everyday utility]. Especially that some of the ppl speculating about axis w/o seeing axis lock knife.
 
Originally posted by komondor
Loosely on a spine wack test, but more directly on the fact that a liner lock stands a good chance of closing when the knife spine or top of blade takes a heavy impact and rattles the mechanics of the knife.

Well, as for the part that is "loosely based" on the spine wack test, you can choose to use that as a "Standard" as many people have, or possibly a percentage of the "Standard" you wish to establish. That is for you and for those that would agree with you, I don't consider it necessarily "proof" or "evidence," however.

The reason is not because I merely wish to continue many online disputes with regard to the issue or to disagree with you personally. (I have better things to do than that)

The spine wack test, for one thing, would only be valid if we are speaking about holding a knife out for someone to smack with a stick. If you are using a metal table, then a piece of pipe in the street...etc.

Now, here is where reality clashes with theory. The theory is, it is going to happen. The reality is, it is not likely to happen. That is, that someone would even get that shot in a flurry. This is what happens when people dream about things instead of training and thinking. The knife is the opposite of a handgun, especially the smaller knives, in that, they are supposed to move. They do not require a stable platform as a handgun and in some knife styles with larger knives...require a firm guard and stability.

The small knife moves.

A table is basically immovable object when we are speaking about striking it with the spine of a 4.0 to possibly 10.0 ounce folding knife.

The reason I discount the spine wack test is, in a survival situation, like "wilderness" survival, when is the knife going to encounter that type of specific shock? The answer to that is, it is not unless you specifically wish to do that movement.

In a Self-defense encounter, we are talking about the possibility of a stick traveling downwards and striking a blade, the lock failing and the knife closing on the fingers.

I think anything is possible, I will give you that. As far as the odds of one closing more than the other...like I said, anything is possible. What is likely? I don't think it is likely and I so strongly believe that, I bet my fingers on it.

That is not "proof" nor "evidence" either. But...I don't put it forth as such. So, it sort of makes me giggle when I see people offering up little segments of opinion, as proof or evidence to be refuted.

I know that there is an incredibly low chance of a knife in my hand encountering such force, and what of the force if it should be encountered?

It is more likely going to be a hit into bone where the liner lock, if it fails at all, would fail to the "open," meaning, the lock will be busted and the knife locked open.

The problem I have with people speaking about other nifty locks is...

On most of those knives, people like yourself wish to place them in The Arena of Combat. Yet, the design is basically Utilitarian in nature. Not that it cannot or should not be pressed into service if need be...

However, one of the reasons you see people involved in Knife Combatives choosing Emersons is because of the way they feel. Sure in the hand.

It is quite likely that in any event, the knife you might choose, hey...it might not fail you...your fingers might be intact, then again, they might be cut to the bone and possibly the palm as well because the knives are not designed with a certain task (Self-defense) in mind.

The purpose of this is...to toss ideas in the ring. I'm not going to argue about these things over and over and over...too much time typing and I'm not going to change your mind and I am not going to rattle and prattle back and forth.

Buy and carry what suits you, whatever floats your boat. But just because you choose to do so...that is not "proof" of anything per se, except that you put a certain amount of thought into something and no one faults you for that.

Of course, you could take this back over into Urban Jungle and continue on. ;)
 
Originally posted by Gator97
Anyway, given all those facts I have hard time believing that liner lock will be more reliable in combat use, which supposedly will be harsher and more stressful [compared to everyday utility]. Especially that some of the ppl speculating about axis w/o seeing axis lock knife.

I had to look on your site to obtain the model number of the Benchmade I owned at one time (Got it in trade or bought it from BFC Member "Memnoch" some time ago). It was an interesting knife and an intriguing lock to boot. I sold it or traded it to someone, cannot remember. Did not have it long. I think it was one of the first ones made, when it first came out. It would not hold an edge very well, but that was minor. I fiddled with it and used it for over a month and was not impressed.

Same with several Rolling Lock Knives.

So...don't think that everyone is just throwing out idle speculation and just because some people do not go over to The Benchmade Forum and whine, moan, bitch and complain about everything as is the norm here (For one thing, if you do it enough over THERE you will get banned.) that does not mean they have not had failures or problems.

I've had problems with Benchmades, Rekats and Spydercos...I can live with my pivot pin loosening in my Emersons if need be. Know what I mean?
 
Originally posted by Don Rearic
I had to look on your site to obtain the model number of the Benchmade I owned at one time
So which one was it?

It would not hold an edge very well, but that was minor
Depends, I consider that to be important. Not that I mind sharpening, but anyway.

I fiddled with it and used it for over a month and was not impressed.
Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but I understand your words as if there was no lock failure?

So...don't think that everyone is just throwing out idle speculation
I didn't say everyone, I said some. I think that's obvious.

Besides I am neither, defeiding axis nor attacking liner lock.
Once again, simple numbers, reports of failures. Based on those numbers I make my conclusions. Doesn't mean this is absolutely true, yet untill I see something more convincing why should I ignore that?

and just because some people do not go over to The Benchmade Forum and whine, moan, bitch and complain about everything as is the norm here
I do not think that if someone had Axis lock failed on him/her would necessarily go to BM forum, probably there'd be a post in General or Reviews forum. And less liklely that a person would keep the lock failure secret?

As a favor, can you explain, what is your definition of "whining, moaning and bitching"? You said several time that you have no probs stating the problems, so what exactly makes your statement different from other complaints? I suspect that's not the excessive usage of F words and other "compliments", correct? Must be something else.

(For one thing, if you do it enough over THERE you will get banned.)
Probably. I've seen people banned there, however not exactly for complaining, rather when things got personal.

that does not mean they have not had failures or problems.
No that doesn't. However I do not think that BM owners have failures with their BM knives and do not mention it on this or BM forum.
At least I have seen different probs reported on BM forum and nobody was banned for that.

I've had problems with Benchmades, Rekats and Spydercos
Me too, never had a spyderco though. However no lock failures(knocking on the wood).

I can live with my pivot pin loosening in my Emersons if need be. Know what I mean?
Me too. Yet I think it is ok to mention that the problem exists and I do not consider that as bitching or moaning :) And that's not a reason to dump on someone.
 
Don,

Long time, no see (or talk). Your points are sound and I agree with your assessment that different knives are suited for different handlers.

By the way, have you ever handled an Al Mar Sere 2000? If so, what did you think of it? That is an awesome liner lock.
 
So which one was it?

BM 710.

It would not hold an edge very well, but that was minor
Depends, I consider that to be important. Not that I mind sharpening, but anyway.

It is a minor concern in a Defensive Knife. More of a concern in a Utility Knife. I believe in having dedicated Defensive Tools, that way they perform the best when you need it most.

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but I understand your words as if there was no lock failure? [On Axis, BM 710]

There was no failure, but the potential was there. Let me explain a bit more.

I've had a couple Rolling Locks fail due to lubrication or flaw in design. Does not matter which. Locks with springs, etc., in them, and I understand the Axis does have one... Due to intertia, etc., perhaps very slick lubricant, the lock can jump. That is what I have experienced and I saw the same potential in the Axis.

I think a lock like an MT Plunge(r) Lock as can be seen on the L and M-UDT has gravity working for it and is more than a bit different. If I'm going to trust a lock fully with a spring in it...it is going to be that. This is also more of a concern during thrusting...

Besides I am neither, defeiding axis nor attacking liner lock.
Once again, simple numbers, reports of failures. Based on those numbers I make my conclusions. Doesn't mean this is absolutely true, yet untill I see something more convincing why should I ignore that?

I think you have attacked the liner lock in the past and will continue to do so, I think we have to entirely different definitions of the word "attack."

And, the "simple numbers, reports of failures" are based on Liner Lock Vs. Axis when there are tens of thousands more liner locks out there. I don't know if I want to stand on that sort of "numbers" at all. But if you wish to, that's fine.

As a favor, can you explain, what is your definition of "whining, moaning and bitching"? You said several time that you have no probs stating the problems, so what exactly makes your statement different from other complaints? I suspect that's not the excessive usage of F words and other "compliments", correct? Must be something else.

I think I have clearly explained my position on this in the past. How many times do I have to do it? If you and others did not listen 6 months ago, 3 months ago or 1 month ago, why would you listen now?

ONE MORE TIME.

Most of the complaints are from a very vocal minority of EKI Critics, that's Number One and it is NOT a crisis.

If you wish to see that for yourself, go back and look at the "bitching and whining" threads in the General Forum where someone ASKS if EKI is a good choice...and people pile on with OLD information.

So, tell me, when does EKI get a break and some praise for improving QC? It seems like they will carry the cross of blunders FOREVER because of the select few, very vocal critics...

No that doesn't. However I do not think that BM owners have failures with their BM knives and do not mention it on this or BM forum.
At least I have seen different probs reported on BM forum and nobody was banned for that.

I think if there were four people who trolled the BM Forum and everytime someone said, "Hey, I'm new around here, how is Benchmade?" And someone like myself who has had negative experiences with stripped screws from the factory, etc., well over two years ago...I think I would be banned for that trolling. Of course, I feel no need to do that because I don't know how their QC is NOW and feel no need to bash them for something a few years ago. I have better things to do with my time. Know what I mean?

I can live with my pivot pin loosening in my Emersons if need be. Know what I mean?

Me too. Yet I think it is ok to mention that the problem exists and I do not consider that as bitching or moaning And that's not a reason to dump on someone.

I don't consider taking my thumb and turning a screw with pressure alone approximately 5mm to be a "problem." It is a piece of equipment with moving parts. I have had negative experiences with BMs and I think I would have rather had a self-loosening pivot pin that I can thumb tighten, rather than screws in the G10 that were stripped at the factory.

Again, that may have changed, I don't know. The only BM folder other than Balisongs I have purchased since I traded off my BM Emerson CQC-7, Sentinel, AFCK and Stryker was the 710 and the spring in it turned me off for reasons I stated above.

K,

I have handled the AMK SERE 2000. It is a fine knife and has a great feel to it as well. It has the same, basic, secure feeling I like in certain knives for Defensive Purposes.

It has some of the similar attributes I look in some forms of Defensive Tools. In the Emersons, the Kershaw Boa, and in knives like the Crawford Custom KFF and WORTAC [both large size].

The Gunting is a "sleeper" knife. It has a steel in it that any Steelhead can appreciate...it has a new lock that has the possibility of burying ALL locks on hard use knives...meaning, The Compression Lock might be the strongest yet and the most simple as well. It has an excellent grip...it's just fugly in a way and very specialized in another way and I think, underrated.
 
Interestingly I don't think the two designs are exclusive. Granted it would increase production costs, but a liner lock with a cam/'axis' lock as well would be quite safe in my eyes ... :D

Of course, it might be seen as a statement of inadequacy of one or both designs as a stand-alone ... :o
 
Originally posted by Don Rearic
I've had a couple Rolling Locks fail due to lubrication or flaw in design. Does not matter which. Locks with springs, etc., in them, and I understand the Axis does have one...
Can't comment on the Rolling lock, haven't disassembled mine to see what's inside, however REKAT did hmm, how to say warn against disassembling, modifying parts, etc, including polishiiing and stuff like that.
One thing though, Axis has 2 springs, and chances of breaking both of them simultaneously is too small.

Due to intertia, etc., perhaps very slick lubricant, the lock can jump. That is what I have experienced and I saw the same potential in the Axis.
Ok, to me Rolling and axis locks feel different, and I haven't tried anything specific, but some stabbing in the phone book.

I think we have to entirely different definitions of the word "attack."
Ok, as you wish, I won't argue.

And, the "simple numbers, reports of failures" are based on Liner Lock Vs. Axis when there are tens of thousands more liner locks out there. I don't know if I want to stand on that sort of "numbers" at
all. But if you wish to, that's fine.

I realize that. BTW I like my fingers intact as much as you like yours. Axis been around since somewhere 1999, right? As a base line we can only count those probs reported after 1999, and for the knives produced after 99. Makes sense? Even if you eliminate older models, still, the ballance is on the same side.

and people pile on with OLD information.
Ok, you have your point, however to some extent all info is old and all the knives we get are OLD... So what do we do then? Probably something like "donno what's now but my xxxx year blade had this prob." that sort of thing?

It seems like they will carry the cross of blunders FOREVER because of the select few, very vocal critics...
Don't think so. After all as you say few vocals, bunch of proponents, once can check things out, make his decision. I don't think it's that simple.

I think if there were four people who trolled the BM Forum and everytime someone said, "Hey, I'm new around here, how is Benchmade?" And someone like myself who has had negative experiences with stripped screws from the factory, etc., well over two years ago...I think I would be banned for that trolling.
May be, however here's bladeforum and there are other places, no one is gonna bann them here? After all you have repeated your negative experience with BM more than one time, and nobody called you things for that.

I don't consider taking my thumb and turning a screw with pressure alone approximately 5mm to be a "problem." It is a piece of equipment with moving parts.
Well, ok, we have different definitions, and I'd rather keep those moving parts in one place.
 
Back
Top