Chris Reeve Green Beret Video Desrtuction Test Completed

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12C27M, 12C27, 440A, 440B (but less tough than 440A), AUS-4, AUS-6, AUS-8 (borderline, but workable) 420 (borderline for acceptable edge holding in most knives, but quite tough, Buck uses 420HC with good results), H1 (but I've only seen it in folders, so it may not hold up in fixed blade uses). There are others I'm sure. Keep in mind, none of these will stand a chance in edgeholding against S30V when hardened to its upper limits, using normal bevel angles(~15-25 degrees per side). However, this particular model isnt hardened near the upper limits, so in terms of crisp, razor sharp edge holding, they (the above steels) wouldnt fair as badly. In long term edge holding they'd still be pretty far behind I'd think.

I've tried 12c27, 440A, aus6, but none of them is very marketable and I don't think they score as well on transverse impact resistance as s30v, though they aren't typically seen on the same graph. Also there is a substantial difference between transverse and longitudinal impact resistance, and I think the graphs above show longitudinal impact resistance. I've actually never broken a blade the way the crk gb broke, though I hammer them into brass 1" round stock.
 
GB has serrations =notches & stress raisers knife broke through the stress raiser -makes sense
strider BT - no serrations - no notches or stress raisers - performed better when beat with a hammer - makes sense
 
I would of thought that serrations make little if any difference to the spine strength, its not as if theyre ground in on both sides of the blade.
 
Cracks originate at stress raisers or nothches - the crack very likely initiated at the notch(serration) and ran through to the spine
 
I believe the Gerber Noss tested has serations and it seems like it faired better. I think it even passed that particular test. I could have missed something in that test though.
 
I believe the Gerber Noss tested has serations and it seems like it faired better. I think it even passed that particular test. I could have missed something in that test though.

It was not the same steel though.
 
It was not the same steel though.

Roger that. I was under the impression that it was being stated that the only reason the knife failed is that it had serrations which may have been where the knife failed. I did not realize you guys were only speeking of one kind of steel. Sorry for the mix up.

It was just a thought of mine that a knife can be made with serrations that can take some punishment and at a lot less than $300.
 
I've tried 12c27, 440A, aus6, but none of them is very marketable and I don't think they score as well on transverse impact resistance as s30v, though they aren't typically seen on the same graph. Also there is a substantial difference between transverse and longitudinal impact resistance, and I think the graphs above show longitudinal impact resistance. I've actually never broken a blade the way the crk gb broke, though I hammer them into brass 1" round stock.

I priced some 1" brass stock today. That is an expensive test!! I've been known to crank a knife through brass 3/16" rod using a vice to push it through. On second thought, knock 440A and 440B off the list. 440A was the blade material used on a sword that I had shatter on a rotten 2x4. Without data on the transverse toughness for these steels, its impossible do anything but guess about how these steels measure up.

I might as well go ahead and get my summed opinion out about this test. I think Noss provides good information, albeit qualitative and relative, and open to quite a bit of interpretation. Certainly no one I know of but Noss and Cliff have been willing to do such tests to expensive knives and publicly post the results for anyone to see. There seem to be so many that cant get past the hammer test. Noss did peel an apple and cut some webbing in the beginning, and gave the GB high marks for each. Some cry that knives arent designed for this kind of treatement, but I contend that Busse, Ferhman, Scrap Yard, some Cold Steel models, and various other production brands and some customs are designed for this kind of abuse, and it shows. They are thick, with relatively obtuse bevels and thick edges, made from tough steels. Some say that these are not real world tests. I would agree. Browse Noss' site. His express purpose is the breakage of the piece. No one sets out in real world or everyday use to break the piece of equipment. Then there's the ever popular line about using the right tool for the right job. I contend that knives marketed as tough knives are meant for use when the right tool is not available. Other makers publish uses of their knives that are not in keeping with the "right tool for the right job" line, and some uses include severe hammering. One well known maker stated that one of his knives was pounded through giant earth mover tires. Sounds like a better tool could have been found, but it wasnt, and the knife was used, and survived the ordeal. Another popular maker tells a story of using his production model pocket knife to pick locks, and when the tip broke, after the particular situation was over, he thought long and hard about tip design and geometry for the knives he made. Purpose built lock picks would have been the way to go, but he either didnt have any or didnt have the time or opportunity to go get them.

The knives tested are sold as, or implied to be, tough knives that you can count on when trouble strikes. These tests are not meant to be representative of real world use, they are meant to push the knives beyond the breaking point so the viewer can evaluate what the knife might be capable of before everything goes south. Also, a big point that hasnt been made enough, IMO, is that you cant just watch one video of one model and expect to get much out of it, unless you have that particular model and are just curious about its capabilities. The videos dont give a great deal of information unless you watch more than one. Since the standardization, sort of, of the tests, determining if one particular knife is tougher than another seems fairly easy.

This test doesnt make me think the GB is a bad knife. It serves fine for cutting and light chopping, camp food prep, whittling stakes, carving traps, cutting line for snares, etc. Just dont count on it not to break if, for whatever reason, you need to baton it with a rock or something, and dont count on it to serve as a light emergency pry bar for jimmying doors or windows and such.
 
I hope this comes across as constructive. It's intended to be. Making generalizations with respect to almost anything about knife construction is like drawing a curve from just two data points. There are just too many unknown/uncontrolled factors and potential variables.

A single bad hit from a hammer can create torsional stress that is unique to that one blow and no others. When Rob Simonich was testing one of his S30V Combat Ravens by hammering it through the rectangular steel retaining bars on a chain link fence, he said he knew when the blade broke in the same instant it broke because the hammer strike wasn't square to the spine. The edge was wedged into the steel bar and the hammer strike created rotational stresses that popped a chip out of the edge. The chip occurred only after he had cut through several links and made several more cuts through the retaining bar. Was the fault in the S30V or the hammer?

This blade was doomed from the beginning, because that was the nature of the test, but we'll never know exactly what forces were in action in the instant the blade broke. Was the fatal hammer blow slightly off center creating torsional stresses which acted on an already chipped/cracked edge, expanding the crack through the entire width of the blade? There really no way of knowing. Even if you're swinging the hammer, you can't know exactly what forces are created by the impact.

Serration's are a huge variable. In production knives they are usually ground or machined into the edge. The finish of a serrated edge is seldom very fine and never stropped so while the serrations are in themselves stress risers, the edge within the serrations often contains still more and potentially more destructive stress risers because of the coarse finish. In my experience with it, S30V especially does not like those coarse edge stress risers. In fact that's what I think is responsible for most/maybe all of the edge chipping that has been reported with the steel. Many people have reported S30V chipping problems which went away once the edge was resharpened (read: more highly finished than was received from the factory).

I have no doubt S30V can be a tough steel. I also have no doubt S30V edges can be created with stress risers that will compromise that toughness. What has likely happened in these tests is that the coarse finish led to micro-cracking with the moderate edge impacts in the chopping, etc., which in turn led to catastrophic failure under the heavy impact stresses of the hammering. So, in effect the steel was subjected to three insults. The hammer blow was just the last straw. The edge testing that took place earlier likely induced some cracking/chipping as a result of those stresses on an edge full of stress risers. But the real culprit here IMO, ignoring the possibility of heat treating issues, were the stress risers built into the edge with the serration's. Does this mean that all serration's are bad? No. I'd hate to slice bread without them. It does mean, and again this is just my opinion, that you don't want serration's on a knife that is likely to experience anything approaching the abuse this knife experienced. You especially don't want them on a blade made with a steel that is not particularly tolerant of stress risers. Serrations on S30V folders? Probably no problem at all. Serrations on a large blade in a milder or tougher steel? Probably no problem, though some hold an edge a lot longer than others, so you have other trade-offs there.

Why did the S30V Strider fare better? As was noted above, no serration's - no built in stress risers. Possibly a finer finish on the edge. Why did the Strider fail before the Busse or a Cold Steel? Because stainless steels are not as tough as tool steels, but they also don't rust and to many, especially those in the military, rust resistance is a key consideration. Are Noss' tests useful? Sure, you can always learn from seeing how something fails. What you need to be careful with though is that what you learn is not always obvious, and trying to draw conclusions from what appears to be obvious is fraught with intellectual risks. You also need to be careful of accepting anything as fact, because someone on here - myself included - offered a plausible explanation. History has a way of proving the experts wrong more often than not. :D

Now, just so no one goes flying off the other end of the spectrum. The toughest knife steels will bend, experiencing plastice deformation, long before they break. A bent fixed blade is likely even less useful than a broken fixed blade. The broken blade will at least go back in its sheath. :)
 
Thanks for chiming in Jerry.

It’s good to hear input from a world class knifemaker.
 
Jerry,

Thank you for your input. Could you please add to your analysis comments specifically addressing that the Green Beret knife had at least three major cracking failures, at different points in the testing? [i.e., the tip, while being gouged into sheet metal, the middle of the blade, when hammered through wood, then the remainder of the blade, when laterally hammered while vised]

Thank you.
 
I'd ascribe all those failures to either edge finish or HT problems or both. I can tell you this. It is not a design or blade geometry issue. I've looked at this knife at a couple shows and have even told Chris that I think it's the best combat knife design on the market. It is not a steel (S30V) issue per se because I know the steel and its performance capabilities and other knives in this steel have performed better. Clearly, something got screwed up. I thought I read that the hardness was fairly low; I couldn't find where I read that as I was writing this. It might be a combination of lower hardness and a coarse edge. That's not something I've looked at in my use of the steel. I, and I believe Strider as well, use Rc58/59.

I will note this, all steels are potential victims of stress risers. Once you beat up an edge so that is it full of chips and cracks, all of which are stress risers, you can expect that torsional stresses are going to crack that edge further and that will eventually lead to blade failure. Steels which deform before they crack are less prone to such failure and that would include many tool steels. The flip side of that is that such deformation is responsible for edge rolling. Once you get into these massive failure tests though, you tend to lose sight of the fact that the knife is still supposed to cut. If the edge rolls, it's pretty dull so steels that protect against cracking may not make the most durable cutting edges.

One thing I hadn't contemplated, and I don't recall seeing it when I looked at one of these knives, is that the edge might have been coarse and too fine. You can't put a folder edge on a chopper and expect it to last very long.

As I guess you can see. All you can really do with these results is to speculate on what happened. I don't think you can indict a component of the knife and clearly say this is why it failed - not from the pix anyway.
 
"The toughest knife steels will bend, experiencing plastice deformation, long before they break. A bent fixed blade is likely even less useful than a broken fixed blade. The broken blade will at least go back in its sheath."

Yup!
 
Thanks for the thoughtful comments, Jerry. :)

If the right people could look at this fracture, they could probably tell us something about how and why this broke, too.
 
I don't think you can indict a component of the knife and clearly say this is why it failed - not from the pix anyway.

Did CRK indicate they were interested in getting the pieces back to take a look? I would they they (CRK) could tell quite a bit by looking at them.
 
DaveH: Yes CRK now has possession of the knife used in the test. They contacted me and offered me a replacement for the parts. I don't know anymore
about it at this time.
 
It's been my experience that you get the most information about failure modes from the subtle damage that results from more moderate testing. That's one reason I like my 8d nail cutting test. It's not a very rigorous test of steel strength or toughness at all, just hammering an edge through the nail resting on a piece of wood, but it shows how the steel will fail when it is does. Will it chip? Will it deform? Is the edge more likely to crack or roll? In most cases, such damage as there is can be sharpened out so you're not trashing a knife to find out what it's made of and how it's likely to fail. Something to be said for that. If you do this on a couple knives of diverse quality you can see something of how the results will reflect the differences - or not.

I do another nail test that I've performed at least twice on every steel I use. All steels fail this test; it's definitely destructive or it's not done right. I hammer an 8d common bright nail (Home Depot) into a board, bend it to 45 degrees, then try to cut the nail in half by chopping straight down on the bottom half of the angled nail. The lateral stresses this induces are huge. The edge will either bend beyond usefulness or it will pop out a nice round chunk. How and which of those failure modes occur tells me a lot about the steel.

There's something you need to understand about these tests. These are MY tests, and I know about how much force I use on the chop; I know how heavy the edge is on the knife; I know everything there is to know about the knife: and I know what the same conditions have produced with other knives and other steels in my hands, in my shop. The is no comparative standard beyond me and my shop in any of these tests. But it tells me how that knife edge compares with other knife edges under conditions I know and control. You have absolutely no way of reproducing my test conditions; you can only establish your own with your own hand speed, muscle mass, and sense of fairplay.

Once an edge is damaged beyond all recognition, it's almost impossible to attribute failure to a single source. If there were a single chip in an edge and you hammered on the tang until the blade broke, whether it broke at the chip location or elsewhere would tell you something about how it broke, but even then you'd have to be dead certain your hammer blows were square to the tang surface, or you'd never be able to guess the amount of torsional stress you induced and where it acted upon the edge. What is the cross-sectional area of the blade that resists rotational stress or lateral bending? Is the difference between the CRK and the Strider just that? You can never know that this test was identical to the test that broke or didn't break another blade you tested months ago, IMO.

Maybe the best test you can use is the test of consumer experience. Forget all the experts. How many people have good experience with this knife, this steel, this kind of edge, this company? This and other forums might be the best indicators of quality, but even then you'll have people clamoring about how great this is that knife is because it is popular to do so, OR it's a knife they own and want their choice to be viewed as sound.

It's tough. Do your own tests. Chop hard wood, cut nails, do anything you want that doesn't destroy the knife and see what happens. Compare results between a couple knives you own and form your own opinion of what's best in the blades you want to use. Try to make everything as consistent as you can and be honest with your assessments. Try for forget that the $300 knife should perform better than the $100 knife, and try to remember there are more qualities to a knife than just how well it chops nails or anything else. Just look at the results and nothing else. Stainless is important to some, so don't try to convince someone, yourself included, who wants stainless to believe that stainless steels are inferior. Some people only want knives in tool steels so don't screw around with stainless because you'll never see anything you like there.

Just try it. See how little damage you can do to an edge in any manner you choose, then see if that same action damages another edge. This is the window in which we operate with our knives, using them as tools not by beating them to death. You'll learn something and still have a useful tool after you resharpen it. And try to forget its potential as your last life saving piton while you're scaling Everest, or that you'll ever use it to build a log (or concrete block) cabin for your family to make it through an artic winter. Be real. I spent a lot of time in the jungle and never needed anything better than an $18 Ontario machete. (Actually I think they were more like $8 back then.) :D

This really can be fun.
 
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