Chris Reeve Green Beret?

Temper said:
I for one find Cliff's reviews interesting. How can you poo-poo a test and results? If you take away the references to other makers the info is still valid.

One note on nails though, I used to work in a plant that made cold heading wire, fence wire, barbed wire, bridge wire, you get the picture right? The wires or rods were drawn down in a Tungsten die to the required size for use as wire, bolts and a myriad of other things. Anything that failed tests, which usually included compression (cracking would be a reject for wire destined for cold heading into bolts or screws) or a ductility test were not thrown away, they were usually drawn down again after annealing and used for another product or they are made into nails. Nails are the end of the line for wire and a box of nails might have about 10 different types of steel in it although all the nails look the same, this is why some just bend when you wack them the same as the others that have gone it without a problem :)

Its not much but I though I should mention that not all nail are created even dispite being in the same box. :)

Now, back to the scheduled arguing :)


This is some very good information. Thank you!
 
In my earlier post I was attempting to point out that testing of materials involves precise test methods and specimen preparation in order to generate results that will seperate materials. Testing I have seen described here is neither precise nor disciplined. Testing described in this and many other threads involves processes akin to lets bang it with a rock and see what will happen. Most of the testing described will, if carried out without bias test the entire system of steel and knife manufacture including heat treat grinding and then edge preparation. Conclusions are then drawn and atributed specifically to the material. Included in the reporting is no examination of the failures to determine with accepeted failure analysis techniques what really happened. I have spent 25 years of my life analyzing steel failures and determining cause and corrective action. Had I used techniques typically described here to analyze and correct real world problems in steel making and use I would have never reached my first anniversary.
From what I can see no consideration is given to even standardizing the materials tested against. I can create a set of circumstances which will cause any material to chip or break or become dull.
I can also create conditions where a less than tough material will be less chip prone than a tough material. This is why I question many of the results posted here.
There is no one best material nor is there one best design for a knife. One must look at the desired tool and generate a design to accomplish the goal. Design considerations will include material, manufacturing, heat treatment and cost. Given these varied priorities is is no surprise there are so many products in the market place. It is also no surprise there are so many materials available. Perhaps if time and interest are available I can outline from a material point of view why and how many of the currently available material were created and what they were created for but keep in mind very few were created with knives in mind.

RTB
 
Cliff Stamp is not a "zero". He is the most objective, honest, and knowledgeable contributor to Bladeforums. No one else comes close.
 
sams said:
Mr Stamp is a ZERO................:rolleyes:

Comments like that, personal attacks, are becoming commonplace in your posts. This is disappointing, especially coming from someone with such an esteemed background.

3Guardsmen
 
Well, maybe I should not have said that "No one else comes close" to Cliff Stamp in honesty and knowledge. Sal Glasser of Spyderco is also a very honest and knowledgeable contributor to Bladeforums.
 
No personal attacks. Just my opinion. There is a group who think one way, I see things another, not personal, ok?
 
sams said:
I will say most of what I read seems to come from arm chair commandos with no field experience!

Just a alot of opinions, no quals!

Of what "quals" do you speak? Having used a knife on another person? If that is what the difference is between a person with "quals", such as yourself, and an "armchair commando" (people who use knives for such things as hunting, survival, camping, and other general utility forms of cutting), than I suspect you'll find a whole lot more "armchair commandos" than people with "quals", such as yourself, here on these forums. Maybe you should take another look at the description of these forums:

"Welcome to the most popular knife discussion website in the world!

Here you can discuss all facets of knives,
from construction to materials to sharpening methods,
all in a friendly environment with some of the foremost experts in the field"


Where, in the above description, does it say one needs "quals" to discuss knife performance here?


sams said:
I will say the majority here are "children". They have no field experience.

See my comments to the above quote.

sams said:
They don't know what a knife is. They never used one for "REAL". They just hold it and pretend.

Please explain just what "REAL" knife use is?!?!



3Guardsmen
 
It must have
took allot of effort to put all that together. Pretty good job.

Just who are you and what do you want?
 
sams said:
It must have
took allot of effort to put all that together. Pretty good job.

Just who are you and what do you want?

I am a knifenut who enjoys a good discussion on the performance and function of knives, and a guy who doesn't like to see Cliff and other members get trashed on for offering their opinions. Good enough for you?

3Guardsmen
 
sams said:
Good enough for me. I offer my opinions ok?

Sounds good to me. On a side note, thank you for your service to this great country!

Best wishes,
3Guardsmen
 
W.T. Beck said:
Cliff Stamp is not a "zero". He is the most objective, honest, and knowledgeable contributor to Bladeforums. No one else comes close.

Kevin Cashen, Keith Montgomery, Ed Schempp, OwenM, Burchtree(Michael Burch), and STR, just to name a few are very knowledgeable, and just as, if not more honest and objective than Cliff.

I have my problems with what Cliff presents, how he does it, and his perception here. I think that 3Guardsman puts it EXTREMELY well when he says that he "appreciates Cliff's reviews for what they are, informative and interesting to read.", Temper also said similar things.

My biggest problem is that Cliff says things that incite friends and good acquaintances of mine to get pretty pissed off, if for nothing else, than some of his "findings" here threaten their incomes, directly or indirectly. This being predicated on each reader here being a potential customer.

That being said, as above, it IS about the steel AND the design. Bill Harsey is an acquaintance of mine, and a pretty good one at that. I have known him for about 10 years, and we have had our agreements and disagreements.

The facts on design and craft;

-Bill has used knives professionally, as a lumberjack, and outdoorsman for a good portion of his adult life.

-Bill was chosen by Col. Rex Applegate, an undisputed expert in hand-to-hand combat, crowd control and knife design to handcraft the Applegate-Fairbairn knife, after other makers proved to be unreliable. He may still, I do not know, but I own one of these, and it is top notch.

-Bill was chosen by Al Mar to build the original Shiva, I own one of these, and it is a beauty as well.

-Chris Reeve is no slouch in the design department, and he certainly did not NEED Bill to design more knives. I am sure that Chris had his reasons, and I intend to ask him at SHOT this weekend, and will report back, when I have the answer.


The steels-

Chris has used A2, ATS-34, BG42, and S30V. This alone should indicate that there is no "wonder steel". There isn't.

INFI seems to be a very good steel, I own a Thick NICK, use it, and enjoy it very much.

HOWEVER, when we talk about Busse, you cannot ignore certain bads, with the goods. The knives from Busse are almost as hard to get as a good custom knife from a popular maker. The choices of current offerings are EXTREMELY limited, and having owned 4 Busse knives, I conclude that they are averse to putting a "pointy" point on their knives. This bugs me for practical and aesthetic reasons.

I have information from an excellent and trusted source who has looked at S30V under an appropriate microscope and has concluded that the Japanese, specifically with ZDP are producing a superior product. What has not been determined yet, is how THAT steel will hold up in large knives.

I have a Green Beret 5.5, and have not used it a whole lot, but do find the ergonomics to be excellent. I hate the sheath that it comes with, although our servicemen may like it quite a bit.

S30V has become another "must have" steel, just like BG42 before it, just like ATS-34 before it, just like 440C before it. You know, 440C is an excellent steel, but like the others is VERY much subject to more variables than can be reasonably discussed here.

The jury is still out on S30V, but it SEEMS ideally suited for knives in the folding category, 4" blades or so, and smaller fixed blades, with lengths of 7" or less. This is based on my own experience, and constant consultation with industry professionals.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Crompal said:
In my earlier post I was attempting to point out that testing of materials involves precise test methods and specimen preparation in order to generate results that will seperate materials. Testing I have seen described here is neither precise nor disciplined. Testing described in this and many other threads involves processes akin to lets bang it with a rock and see what will happen. Most of the testing described will, if carried out without bias test the entire system of steel and knife manufacture including heat treat grinding and then edge preparation. Conclusions are then drawn and atributed specifically to the material. Included in the reporting is no examination of the failures to determine with accepeted failure analysis techniques what really happened. I have spent 25 years of my life analyzing steel failures and determining cause and corrective action. Had I used techniques typically described here to analyze and correct real world problems in steel making and use I would have never reached my first anniversary.
From what I can see no consideration is given to even standardizing the materials tested against. I can create a set of circumstances which will cause any material to chip or break or become dull.
I can also create conditions where a less than tough material will be less chip prone than a tough material. This is why I question many of the results posted here.
There is no one best material nor is there one best design for a knife. One must look at the desired tool and generate a design to accomplish the goal. Design considerations will include material, manufacturing, heat treatment and cost. Given these varied priorities is is no surprise there are so many products in the market place. It is also no surprise there are so many materials available. Perhaps if time and interest are available I can outline from a material point of view why and how many of the currently available material were created and what they were created for but keep in mind very few were created with knives in mind.

RTB

I think we have to bang knives with rocks until we figure out which knives are best banged with which rocks. S30V is being used on all sorts of knife designs, for all sorts of applications. Different finishes, edge profles, hardness levels, stock thickness, etc. I dunno where it goes in the scheme of things, next to S7, or ZDP, or O1.... All I know is that it was kinda considered 'the' knife steel, since it was designed with cutlery in mind. Problem is, there is no 'the' knife. So, as long as it's hot, it's gonna appear in way too many different knife configurations and get banged with pebbles and boulders.

If a tougher material chips, breaks, or dulls, then someone made a mistake along the way. And if a less tough material doesn't chip, isn't that better utilization of that material in design or application? Is there something wrong with S30V? Doubtful. Is there something wrong with what some makers/manufacturers have done with it? Probably, since there have been problems.
 
This is GunnerJohn,
Just so you all know, Harsey and I are headed off to SHOT Show tomorrow and will not be online till Monday. Hope all stays peaceful till then.

GunnerJohn
 
GunnerJohn & Mr. Harsey,
Have a great time at the show. I wish I could make it this year.

Steven (Kohai999),
Excellent post!

Hardheart,
Great post as well.

Best wishes,
3Guardsmen
 
From Crompal
"There is no one best material nor is there one best design for a knife. One must look at the desired tool and generate a design to accomplish the goal. Design considerations will include material, manufacturing, heat treatment and cost"

I think that this is just what Bill Harsey and Chris Reeve have done with the Green Beret and the Neil Roberts knives.
I am glad to hear here that Bill Harsey had a hand in the design of the Appelgate/Fairbain since I have both the large models and the boot knife from Boker as well as the folding models by Gerber...way ta go Bill. Oh, yeah Harsey's name also appears on my Silver Trident by Gerber.

All bickering aside, I suppose that Cliff Stamp can have his opinions, and I and others who don't agree with him can have our opinions also. All I have to do is just scroll past his tests and read the other posts.

Ciao, all
Ron
:rolleyes:
 
muzzleup said:
.
I am glad to hear here that Bill Harsey had a hand in the design of the Appelgate/Fairbain since I have both the large models and the boot knife from Boker as well as the folding models by Gerber...way ta go Bill. Oh, yeah Harsey's name also appears on my Silver Trident by Gerber.

All bickering aside, I suppose that Cliff Stamp can have his opinions, and I and others who don't agree with him can have our opinions also. All I have to do is just scroll past his tests and read the other posts.

:rolleyes:

Sorry, I think my quote might have been taken slightly wrong. Bill did not co-DESIGN the Applegate-Fairbairn fixed blade model. The Col. did that with W.E. Fairbairn. Actually, what Bill did was MAKE the thing as a serialized, handmade knife, which is pretty hard to do. Bill Harsey and Butch Vallotton co-created the folding A-F, with the Col.'s blessing. I did not mention the many other projects that Bill has been involved in designing or building because I did not want to detract from the "meat" of the discussion, which was the design of and steel choice in the GB from Chris Reeve Knives. In addition to his many other accomplishments, Bill can grind a knife about as well as anybody I know. He won the Grinding Competition at the OKCA at least one year that I was there, out of the last 12.

I have posted my feelings about Cliff's methods many times. One other problem that I have with Cliff that I forgot to mention above is the prevalence of "thread highjacking" where Cliff goes of on completely unrelated tangents to the start of the thread. Kind of like I am doing right now!:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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