Chris Reeve Green Beret?

Denix said:
I always hesitate to post in these threads.

First of all, most people here know far more about knives than I ever will, and I certainly don't know much in terms of steel. Second of all, I have tremendous respect for the vast majority of you here. I've been on bladeforums almost daily for the last 5 years, and I like almost everyone here. I just enjoy reading more than writing:)

I like to think things logically though, and throughout this thread something kept bothering me: numbers.

Lets look at some numbers:

CRK has been using S30V for what, 4-5 years now. Lets say that means over 5000 knives (no idea what the actual production is, but it can't be lower than that).

Spyderco has used S30V since the Native I believe. You have Native, Military, Paramilitary and probably a few more. Lets say 10,000 knives (probably much more).

Benchmade, lets use the same number, 10,000.

How about the others? Would 20,000 be fair?

I'm coming up to almost 50,000 knives using S30V, by being deliberately cautious. If the steel had an inherent weakness, we wouldn't hear of a "few" reports of chipping. The steel would have gone the way of the dinosaurs years ago. I mean we would have had massive posts on the subject, and with all the choices, the manufacturers would have stopped using it. They would have no logical reason to "hide the truth" and make us believe that S30V is better. Just look at Spyderco. Sal can probably get all the VG-10 he needs, and has used AUS-6, AUS-8, 440V, ZDP-189, ATS-55, MBS-26, and I know I'm missing some. Why stick with a bad steel with all those choices? Not logical.

I wouldn't be surprised if over a third of us here have an S30V knife. I have one (Sebenza) and I bought an S30V Native for my father in law for his birthday about 3 years ago. My Sebenza doesn't get much duty, but my father in law uses his Native for everything, including prying:rolleyes: I've sharpened his knife a few times and never noticed any chipping. With that many around, I just don't buy into a steel defect, unless my estimates are really wild on the high side, and I just happen to be one of the very few that have S30V.

If we tally all the authentic S30V chipping posts, what do we come up with? 20? 50? I think that's high. Cliff has documented 3, I believe (1 Sebenza, and recently 2 RSK's). I've read of at least 5-10 others here, maybe a bit more. Then add all the ones we don't know about. 50 may be a good working number.

So, by my undoubtably poor math, we get 50 problems out of 50,000. that comes to .1%:jerkit:

I think it would be fun if someone could actually do the math correctly and try to find the real percentage. I honestly believe it would help determine if we have a real problem or not.

Long live BF:D :thumbup:

Guy

P.S. I do believe this is my longest post ever:D
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Just buy some INFI and then you don't even have to worry about 1%.:thumbup:
 
Hardheart, Harsey here,
I never knew I came in last in any testing :D That's funny if you meant our knife, thank you for the smile this gave me.

Just a few points of interest on this testing stuff but first let me declare loud and clear CARRY ON MR. STAMP!

I have no desire to try and stop what he does or prints, period. That's easy.

What is of greater interest to me is that those who defend these tests do not apply a higher level of scrutiny to the test information presented. Results do not tell the whole story. For example, let's look at a result published by Mr. Stamp.

If my memory serves, at or near the bottom of his published report on the Green Beret knife, he adds a picture of (someone else's?) breaking the tip off a green beret knife. It is said something like the knife bent 10 or 15 degrees before failure.

Since this tester (Mr. Stamp) uses scientific types of quantification for test results, lets apply some further scientific reasoning here.

First, there is no indication of the torque load applied to reach the breaking point. We don't know if it took 10 ft. lbs applied side load or 500 ft. lbs. of applied side load to cause the break. Was the knife broken by grabbing the handle barehanded or was additional "cheater" leverage applied with a pipe or wrench?

Second, What previous tests were performed on the knife prior to breaking? Did any of these near destructive tests let the knife fail earlier than it could have? Personally, I would do all other hard testing before the final breaking test. BUT...If I wanted a true test of ultimate bend fracture strength I would want to use an undamaged blade that had no previous nicks or scratches on the edge and would be careful to use other blades made of different steels finished to the exact same shape and dimensions in the same condition, heat treated to some pre-determined optimum, to compare against.

Third, Mr. Stamp printed this test result that is not clear if he or someone else did. If he didn't do or observe this test himself it is called hearsay, yet once it's printed some read this as unquestioned gospel truth.

For those here who are interested in and demanding exacting testing, I am surprised no one has asked about things like this.

It's up to you guys to be smart enough to look deeply into how testing is done on any knife no matter who is doing the test.

Carry on all!
Bill
 
Didn't mean your knife at all, just saying that if there was an Underwriters Lab for knives as was suggested, then any testing would probably still be dismissed by last place finishers. And the mention of the ufo key is a bit of history on that here at BF. Also, that may have been the longest run-on sentence I've ever concocted.
 
gunnerjohn said:
Hardheart, Harsey here,

It's up to you guys to be smart enough to look deeply into how testing is done on any knife no matter who is doing the test.

Carry on all!
Bill
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You make a lot of valid points, Bill. But it's hard for the average Joe to find any testing data at all on even the more popular knives, much less anything that comes up to published, peer-reviewed standards. When I google your great knife, the only real test data I see comes from Cliff. The CRK site has almost no information on the Green Beret, other than physical size and materials used.

I will admit that you've convinced me that the S30V steel on the Green Beret does not have chipping problems. You done good there.
 
Why do people want to only look at the destructive elements of Cliff Stamp's testing?

Cliff also test how well the knives cut. He gives exact numbers of how much pressure it took to cut some thread, or some rope, things that every knife should do. But we like to ignore that, because, after all, Cliff is nothing but a mouth breath, knuckle dragging knife breaker.

Read Cliff's reviews, and read them objectivly. If you want a good cutter, look at the cutting numbers. If you want a chopping pry bar, look at the destructive testing.

One thing is for sure: If you your knife doesnt do well, your going to try to discredit Cliff. Try this: learn from what he said. Dont just go nuts and say Cliff is a crazy red neck idiot. For the most part, his posts are some of the most reasonable ones around.


I thought I was gonna stay out of this mess....
 
Dr. Thor said:
Why do people want to only look at the destructive elements of Cliff Stamp's testing?

Cliff also test how well the knives cut. He gives exact numbers of how much pressure it took to cut some thread, or some rope, things that every knife should do. But we like to ignore that, because, after all, Cliff is nothing but a mouth breath, knuckle dragging knife breaker.

Read Cliff's reviews, and read them objectivly. If you want a good cutter, look at the cutting numbers. If you want a chopping pry bar, look at the destructive testing.

One thing is for sure: If you your knife doesn't do well, your going to try to discredit Cliff. Try this: learn from what he said. Don't just go nuts and say Cliff is a crazy red neck idiot. For the most part, his posts are some of the most reasonable ones around.


I thought I was gonna stay out of this mess....
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Harsey here,
Dr. Thor, Sir, I don't think I've yet read or said that Cliff is a "crazy redneck idiot". That's my turf and I'll defend it against all comers! No way Mr. Stamp is going to get my title!

Mr. Stamps comments do not change my life or work load and have not caused me to go nuts.
My interest here has swung to how other people, who are demanding rock solid (no pun) data, read the testing procedures and conclusions without question.

Point blank Dr. Thor, are you a Doctor?
If so, using whatever science you have been exposed to, why does whatever someone like Mr. Stamp publish on the internet get taken as unquestioned fact without reviewing the science procedures used?
(HOLY CRAP, Mr. Stamp, I'm using you as the current example but actually think it would be fun to do this stuff with you, My proposal will be to get BladeForums members to fund both of us to set up the research facility... the only reason I'm quoting you now is you have already published...work with me here just a bit...)

Dr. Thor, Is this how you do your work? I doubt it.

Isn't the purpose of publishing to be able to both invite and stand up to further scrutiny?

If so, is it possible I might have some experience in the area of knifemaking and may be asking some valid questions?

Welcome to the mess Sir.
 
Obviously there is not going to be a committee to address standardized test methods on knives for some time to come, if ever. In light of this, perhaps the designer/builder should specify the methods employed during testing of the prototype to ensure its integrity for the intended purpose. For lack of any other standard test method, at least this would provide customers with a benchmark idea as to what type abuse the particular knife was capable of taking. And, the test method would be repeatable thereby providing at least some means of test standardization should someone else desire to test the knife for whatever reason.
 
Once again, what is a potentially good thread becomes a thread about cliff.

I, for one, am tired of it.

How about we give him his own forum?
We could call it the
Stamp
High
Integrity
Testing
list.

cliff and his accolites would have a place of their own to chop, hack, measure, break and tear asunder.
Without any need to defend themselves or their methods. And threads like this would be a page or three of information.
 
Ebbtide said:
Once again, what is a potentially good thread becomes a thread about cliff.

I, for one, am tired of it.

How about we give him his own forum?
We could call it the
Stamp
High
Integrity
Testing
list.


cliff and his accolites would have a place of their own to chop, hack, measure, break and tear asunder.
Without any need to defend themselves or their methods. And threads like this would be a page or three of information.
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So, instead of posting about the knife in question, you decided to do what you claim you "are tired of", and post "about Cliff". Nice. You even mustered up the creativity to include some profanity, in true crossword (vertical) fashion. Nice. Thanks for the help in keeping the thread on topic.:thumbup:

3G
 
By my count you've made 13 posts in this thread.
You also have yet to comment on the knife in question.
I'll quote you.
Classic example of "the pot calling the kettle black" if you ask me.
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:jerkit:

First of all, to the moderators of blade forum (my favorite internet website):
What the hell are you people doing letting this rant go on. This thread has gotten past the point of absurd. End it.

To Mr Harsey:
Sir, as a member of the greatest military on Earth, I would like to thank you for your contributions to knifemaking and to our national defense. You are one of the most talented and prolific knife designers of our time. Please keep up the great work.

To Mr Stamp:
Cliff, many (including myself) have enjoyed reading your reviews for a long time. I find them informative, useful, and always entertaining. Please continue the great work you've been doing.

To Qwerty13:
The original point of this discussion was whether or not Chris Reeve's Green Beret was a solid knife. While I don't personally own any Chris Reeve's knives, I handled them and seen them in action. They seem to me to be well constructed, strong cutting tools. I recommend handling one for yourself, buying it (or not), and writing a review of what you think.

Capt Lawrence Klein
USAF Instructor Pilot and avid knife fan/user/collector
 
Mr. Haresy:

I have no problem with you, and in fact my post was directed toward the poeple who trash Cliff Stamp with out reason.

No, I'm not a real doctor. No, I'm not a scientist. Therefore, I will leave the science to those better qualified to deal with it.

I dont think any should take what Cliff Stamp says as gosple. I'm sure he has his flaws. But as DaveH said, who else does the same type of extensive testing? Who can we compare Cliff to? If someone else came forward and started posting the same detailed tests as Cliff, that would be awesome. Until then, we will just have to take Cliff with a grainof salt.

In order to get back to discussion of the Green Beret knife, I think it is very nice. I held one at a show, and it was very comfy, as was the Neil Roberts knife. If I had the money, maybe I would buy one. Mr. Haresy, I like your knives, and I apreciate all your posts on this board.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I have heard of the, and respected the quality, of knives that have been made by Chris Reeve, and Bill Harsey.
I don't give a hoot what Cliff Stamp wants to do to a knife but his credability has absolutly nothing to do with what would cause me to buy a knife just because he tested it. However the past and present reputations of both Chris Reeve and Bill Harsey would certainly be at the top of the list of things that would make me want to own one of theirs.
My Randalls are nice and I appreciate that they are ALL AMERICAN HAND MADE!, however if I was on my way out of the door in a survival situation I would absolutly be grabbing one of my CRK's or if I had a Harsey made knife it to would be the first one I grabbed also.

Enough is enough, Cliff...do your thing I don't need or want your input, I already know who has the sterling reputations for knives that I can stake my life on!

FWIW, and Ciao all
Ron Cassel
:jerkit:
 
hardheart said:
yay for you
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And your well crafted point is......?

Either you are pleased that Ron likes his Reeve knives, and sharing in his joy,

OR

You are being an unnecessarily sarcastic douche?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
Harsey here,
To all,
Thanks for the kind words here. I didn't expect that.

To the knife testing audience on this thread, I've been trying to get you folks to do some light analytical thinking about Mr. Stamps published testing procedures and results. Here is something I was waiting to see if the knife tests fans would see.

The Busse knife is recommended (at the beginning of this thread) by Mr. Stamp over the CRK Green Beret so I was wondering how the Busse did in the concrete block chopping test.

I can't seem to find any mention by Mr. Stamp of that knife being tested in concrete like ours was.

This is an example of something that could be considered as slightly biased or an improper comparison depending on where your sitting.

This is what I mean by trying to do some analytical thinking about published knife tests of any kind.

You guys stay safe, I have work to do.
Out here.
 
gunnerjohn said:
Harsey here,
Here is something I was waiting to see if the knife tests fans would see.

The Busse knife is recommended (at the beginning of this thread) by Mr. Stamp over the CRK Green Beret so I was wondering how the Busse did in the concrete block chopping test.

I can't seem to find any mention by Mr. Stamp of that knife being tested in concrete like ours was.

This is an example of something that could be considered as slightly biased or an improper comparison depending on where your sitting.

This is what I mean by trying to do some analytical thinking about published knife tests of any kind.

You guys stay safe, I have work to do.
Out here.
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Actually, Cliff did test a combat Busse (Battle Mistress E) on concrete, rock, nails and even the head of a hammer. (The knife won.)
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/bm_e.html
 
gunnerjohn said:
Harsey here,
"To the knife testing audience on this thread, I've been trying to get you folks to do some light analytical thinking"

"This is an example of something that could be considered as slightly biased"
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Ok, since the term "bias" has been thrown out there, in Cliff Stamp's direction, and you would like some "analytical thinking" done, I've decided to ask a question I've been holding back since this thread started.

Why is it that "gunnerjohn" was the first person to reply to the poster's (thread starter's) question, and in his post, failed to mention that he was sharing the computer with Bill Harsey, the designer of the knife in question? Nowhere in the first post (quoted below) does "gunnerjohn" mention his obvious affiliation with the knife's designer. Couldn't that possibly constitute a "bias" on the part of "gunnerjohn"?

gunnerjohn said:
The Green Beret has proven itself to the Army Special Forces as well as to general soldiers that have purchased it for themselves. I have a very close friend that purchased one from our local knife store and took it the Iraq with him. He used it to death and it never failed him. The CPM S30V steel is almost impossible to stain.( I say almost... I have not heard on any staining, but you never know what people will try to make something look bad.) I own one of the large models and it has served me well. The strengths of this knife out weigh the price by far. It is well worth the expense. Look on Chris' website and read more about it. He has a link to the special forces site that contains some other information on the knife also.
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Couldn't the above, underlined endorsement of the knife be considered "biased", since "gunnerjohn" had an obvious affiliation with the knife's designer, and failed to inform the original poster of it?


gunnerjohn said:
GunnerJohn here, handing the keyboard over to Bill Harsey, designer of the "Green Beret" knife in question.
This is Bill Harsey, confirm my post and id at Professionalsoldiers.com. For some tech reason, the login here jammed up on me and I have not been able to log in nor have I received the requested help to make it right.


Thank you, Bill Harsey
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Funny that, until Cliff Stamp's post, "gunnerjohn" didn't mention he was sitting next to Mr. Harsey.

Best wishes,
3G
 
blade14 said:
:jerkit:

First of all, to the moderators of blade forum (my favorite internet website):
What the hell are you people doing letting this rant go on. This thread has gotten past the point of absurd. End it.
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I love it, 15 posts and already telling the Moderators how to do their jobs. Nice.:confused:

On a side-note, thank you for your service to this great country!:thumbup:

Best wishes,
3G
 
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