Chris Reeve Knives -what's the difference?

[twl]

I think it's a combination of things.

First, they are very nice knives that are very well made, and have a great warranty, and a lot of people like the looks of them.
Nothing really wrong with them, as long as they fit your hand ok. They are made to very high standards.

But then, there is this whole other layer of "kool aid" that gets slathered on top of the nice knife, which isn't really CRK's fault or doing.
I think it's the collector market trying to hype for sales, or something, based on raising prices for the "greater fool concept". There's always somebody who will pay more if you hype it up good and make him think it's rare too. Plus, nobody wants to lose money on a second-hand sale, after investing money of that magnitude in a pocket knife, so it all self-perpetuates.

I like the knife.
I don't like the kool aid.

 

[jwolf90]

2 Words. Overpriced and Overhyped.

you my friend haven't a clue , you have obviously never handled a CRK. There is a reason for those manufacturing and Quality awards and there is a reason why CRK has a big following and you hear alot about them its not hype its fact!! get job and maybe you can get u some CRK, and I'm not just a CRK fanboy either I tell it like it is

 

[Ankerson]

I tested and reviewed the Umnumzaan in S30V and it did extremely well, the blade was also HRC tested and came in at 59.5 HRC.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ope-and-cardboard-testing?highlight=Umnumzaan

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...umzaan-EDC-Cutting-Series?highlight=Umnumzaan

 

[shqxk]

I have to eat my word. CRK are worth the price due to their superior F&F plus its just symbolized as pioneer of exclusive folder. But still, better get another cheaper knives if you really plan to cuttin stuff with them.

 

[nadnerb05]

My first "expensive" folder was a Strider SNG and upon receiving it, I couldn't imagine a tougher, more solid feeling, asthetically pleasing knife. I was definately a Strider fan in the way some people are Ford or Chevy guys. Then I got a Sebenza and the solidity, fit and finish and ergonomics/usability of the Sebenza blew the SNG out of the water. That's not to say I don't like the SNG (I've continued to buy Striders), and I still carry it, but the Sebenza is decidedly a step above.

 

[Dagon]

I have too many knives, and it took me some time to take the plunge towards a small Sebenza (Insingo variant). While the quality and detailed precision is obvious, it is not exactly overwhelming in the beginning. But, it does grow on you. I would compare it with having a Lexus car: expensive and no that sexy indeed, but you just know that day after day you can count on it and it will do the job without fuzz, with eerie precision.

There was a recommendation for the Taiwan made Spydercos. I do agree, they are amazingly well made. You could indeed argue that a Spyderco Sage 2 is very; very close to a Sebenza in overall quality for half the price. But, while I dearly love Spyderco ergonomics, the slender, unassuming small Sebenza feels perhaps just a little even more "right". Perhaps it's imagination.

Is it worth the money. Not sure. My simple cheap thin bladed Opinels slice food better. But overall it is truly something for knifehounds to try.
For the same price, I also want to point to the Swiss precision brand Klotzli: they are as manically precisely put together as a Sebenza, and actually do feel expensive in the hand with their various precisely cnc'd parts, combinations of polishing alternated with sandblasting etc. CRK is not alone up there in the stratosphere. And if money is really no issue, then a Rockstead feels even more special and surgically precise in the hand.

 

[jill jackson]

I have to eat my word. CRK are worth the price due to their superior F&F plus its just symbolized as pioneer of exclusive folder. But still, better get another cheaper knives if you really plan to cuttin stuff with them.

If you aren't going to use it, then why bother buying it? Do you think they are worth the price just to look at?

 

[Stainz]

Some years back, right after it was dropped, I found a Buck 172 Mayo TNT for $150 shipped. Wow - what a fine S30V/Ti frame-lock. Heralded as a 'poor man's Sebbie', it is fine - but certainly, no Sebbie. It sufficed. Then, 9/10 arrived - with my first SS retirement check. I decided to commemorate that event with a knife - a CRK/Wilson Combat 'StarTac' Umnumzaan - $430 shipped - the most I've ever spent on a knife. My first reaction upon opening the mailer was repeated this AM, "I'm not worthy!". Last July, I went to a local vendor to buy a Microtech knife and the Benchmade 480-1 Shoki I had picked out for my birthday goodies. As I left and turned down the road, I realized for for very little more, I could have left with a new small S35VN plain Sebenza. I turned around - returned - and they made the trade straight up! Again, when I got home and looked at that one knife - I felt unworthy. My 'buyer's remorse' for spending $350 on a single knife soon dissipated. The shock that I then had two CRK folders (... and a $229 fb Nyala from Christmas.) sunk in. It is unlikely I will add another one... how do you top perfection? That would be a great birthday - my wife had the salesman put the pair of knives back and went back later and bought the pair anyway! Yeah, she's a keeper!

So, find a leftover Buck 172 Mayo TNT somewhere and you'll have a poor man's Sebbie - just don't fondle a real one. For a smaller fine Gent's knife - a looker with CF scales, Ti, and m390 blade - look that BM 480-1 Shoki over. Both are ~$150 or so. Certainly, don't fondle a CRK... they'll spoil you for other knives - real quality - great fit & finish, not to mention function. Of course, if you want a great slicer... $30 at WallyWorld will get you a Buck 110 - an American Classic. To me, a great attribute of all of the knives I've mentioned is that they were made in the USA.

Stainz

PS I have two spare/duplicate backup knives - all the rest are users and see some EDC use. A knife is nice to look at - but best enjoyed in use.

 

[marthinus]

My standard reply on the matter:

Well, here is some food for thought, or just some good reading material regarding tight tolerances, that CRK is renowned for, locks and high dollar knives that Sal Glesser, owner of Spyderco has mentioned through the years on the forums (ps, search is your friend).

Another thing to remember is that the Manufacturing Quality award that CRK has won so many times are not chosen by a panel, it is voted for by fellow knife makers. Even Bob Dozier, a very established maker in his own right has CRK pocket knives and I love his motto of : if it feels like climbing through a barbed wire fence, there is something wrong. Slim, sleek and simple knives.

[video=youtube;nI_73zvGx5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI_73zvGx5Y[/video]

A few weeks back, in this thread, someone asked if there was a Spyderco which could compete with the Sebenza. Sal eventually chimed in. His post was primarily a response to someone's skepticism regarding the origins of the framelock. He noted that he had, in his personal collection, a Chris Reeve knife with an earlier lock of Chris' called the "Lock 45". He further noted that it dated back to the 1970's and was the predecessor of the Reeve Integral Lock. That lead to someone asking what it looked like, at which point he suggested sending it to me to be photographed. He also noted in a later post that it was a small knife. It arrived a couple days ago and he wasn't kidding about its size. For the benefit of those who like "dimensional data" it weighs 1.375 ounces (40 grams) has a closed length of 2 13/16" (71 mm), a blade length of 2 7/32" (57mm) with a 2 1/16" (52mm) cutting edge, and is 5/16" (8mm) thick. For those who find photographic comparisons easier to visualize, the first photo below shows it with a Kiwi and my LH Mnandi.

Beyond that, it's an intriguing design. The action is glassy smooth and the lock up is rock solid despite the fact that the blade is only supported from one side. The small thumb stud and smooth handle, thin on the off side, make it difficult to open, but might be less of a problem for someone right handed and with better motor skills. No clip, that was probably not even a gleam in Sal's eye yet. I'm assuming the handle is titanium anodized to a bronze hue but that, and any other questions regarding it would best be answered by Sal, or someone intimately familiar with Chris Reeve's early knives.

Closed, lock side:

close up, to show one of the two ball bearings:

The balls do not serve as detents, just to smooth the action. Only friction holds the blade closed.

Another close up, note the angled locking surfaces on the blade...

Lock side view, half open. You can almost see the lower ball bearing:

Top view, almost fully open:

Fully open, lock side:

Finally, the design does have one peculiarity, you can fold the blade in the wrong direction, at least until the thumb stud makes contact with the frame...

Paul

My Personal Website - - - - - - A Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting - - - - - - Kiwimania
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
Spyderco Collector # 043 - - WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twsited up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam

Well, I cannot speak for Chris Reeve Knives, but I will offer an opinion.

I've known Chris and Ann for many years. We worked together when Chris was in South Africa.

A CRK knife is not a custom knife, nor is it a production knife. They are in a class by themselves. They've taken many years to develop their reputation.

Each piece is custom made by skilled custom makers. CRK tolerances and standards are the highest I've seen in processes like surface grinding and heat treat. There is a limit to their production capacity.

Chris is pretty anal on quality. "Quality is time. = Time is money". He pays his craftsmen a fair wage, and he charges a fair margin, he gives the world a product like no other. Chris and Ann work hard and they make a good living. "Enormous profits" is an inside joke that Chris and I laugh about. Frankly, I think they'd feel guilty if they made too much money.

The "Market" will determine if his business strategies work, regardless of what they are. If they don't work, adjustments are made....that's how businesses survive.

BTW, the flip side of a "bargain driven" market is manufacturers are forced to import product (export jobs) from China to compete in the need for the "lower price". More complications.

sal

Hi Dulleddown,

More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

Hi GWLee,

The benefit of tight tolerances is usually for long term durability as well as smooth function. Long term durability is difficult to determine in a short term decision. That's why reputation is important.

sal

Nice video.

High dollar knives are high dollar because they cost more to make. It might be materials (Titanium, unubtanium, etc.), it might be tolerances (Chris' has lotsa zeros after the decimal before hitting numbers), it might be labor (carving, engraving, etc.).

Sometmes those differences are difficult if not impossible for even the trained eye to detenct, generally impossible for a new student.

Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there, sometimes it just means you can't see it.

sal

At the same time there are many people that feel the knife is not worth it, I did until I read Sal Glesser's comments and bought one myself after 3 years of saving (the knife was later taken in a mugging) and I was UTTERLY UNDERWHELMED when I bought it, even though I handled it before hand I just felt like owning something of true quality for the first time in my life (like a good quality car/suite/watch/camera). Until I used it non stop, on the farm etc and everything just started "flowing" and making sence. I replaced the stolen knife with an Insingo. I will always have a CRK and they retail for around $625 here. They are, for me at least, worth it and my personal connection, what the Sebenza has meant in my life, makes it special for me.

I have rambled a bit, but I hope some of what I have said has helped you to form your own opinion on the matter.

 

[marcinek]

I have to eat my word. CRK are worth the price due to their superior F&F plus its just symbolized as pioneer of exclusive folder. But still, better get another cheaper knives if you really plan to cuttin stuff with them.

Wait a minute. You claimed that CRK knives were overpriced and overhyped. Now you are backing off that claim.

Well...what was that claim based on in the first place? Did your personal experience with CRK knives change since you made that claim, or did you make that claim based on no experience at all?

And is your "better get another cheaper knives if you really plan to cuttin stuff with them" claim based on that same nothing?

It all sounds kind of "inflammatory with the intent of stirring things up."

 

[Tsujigiri]

Interesting read, marthinus. Really neat to see that earlier CRK.

 

[JNewell]

I have to eat my word. CRK are worth the price due to their superior F&F plus its just symbolized as pioneer of exclusive folder. But still, better get another cheaper knives if you really plan to cuttin stuff with them.

Now you're talking in a way that is easier to respond to [that isn't meant to sound condescending]...I totally 'get' that point, at least to the extent that it's a lot easier to beat up on a $50 SAK than a $400 Sebenza. That's completely understandable - but it isn't what the maker's intent was, so if there's a problem, it's really the user's "fault" (not quite the right word) rather than CRK's.

 

[Gator97]

You buy a CRK because you want the best. If you can't afford it, don't buy one.

But don't sit around buying 15 spydercos/BMs and call a CRK overpriced when you could have bought many instead of tons of lower quality knives.

I rest my case.

Before you rest your case, you need to clarify what is CRK best at. Certainly not at cutting and edge holding. I have a few Benchmades, Kershaws, Spydercos, etc that will outcut and outlast Sebenza by wide margin. True, the blades were rehardened, but even if I include full MSRP, rehardening costs, shipping back and forth, they're still considerably cheaper.

So, to answer your first statement, I can afford it, I had both, large, which I've returned in 3 days, and small BG-42 classic, which was actually a good performer. To make a broad statement like you did, CRKs need to be best at purely performance aspects, besides good F&F. As far as practical matters go, as long as the folder has a smooth action and no blade play, I doubt anyone can tell whether the washers tolerance is +- 0.05" or 0.005...
However, everyone can tell the difference between 20 inclusive and 40 inclusive edges. it's a knife after all, not a jewelry piece right?

 

[timberweasel]

I have heard much about CRK here, and in other places.

But $400.00+ is an awful lot for a knife!

I would like to know, if anybody here can tell me, what it is about Chris Reeve knives that makes them so special.

Sure, the easy answer is: they just..feel great!

But that's not an answer, if you see what I mean. Chris Reeve starts out with steel and machinery, same as any other maker, and ends up with a product which impresses every person who encounters it.

So what does he do different?

From the CRK website: http://www.chrisreeve.com/faq.htm#custom

Custom, Handmade or Production?
There has been much discussion over the differences in these three categories and we want to make it clear where our knives belong. Although all the knives that we offer now were, in the very early days of Chris Reeve Knives, considered custom knives, this is no longer true. The demand for our products has enabled us to change the way we make our knives and to make use of modern computer controlled equipment. We have been able to increase the number of knives we make, keep the quality high and the prices at a realistic level. What sets our knives in their own category of excellence is that every blade is free-hand ground, every folding knife is individually fitted, and every knife sharpened by hand. Our knives are not true production pieces; they are hand made individual pieces with limited room for custom work.

Each knife receives a lot of hands-on attention to detail by a person, not a robot, at every step of the manufacturing process. The CRK website indicates that there are only 17 people employed by their company; I would imagine Mr.Reeve is quite selective in hiring the best people he can, with wages appropriate to their skill-level. Having the best equipment and the best staff possible are key ingredients in making a high-quality product--but it ain't cheap. I think the cost of each Chris Reeve knife is quite reasonable considering these factors.

I don't own a CRK... yet. I'll probably end up with one at some point though...

 

[sodak]

Thanks Gator,

I think that you put it better than I could have. That's pretty much where I was at, although I kept mine for a couple of years. I have no doubt that the tolerances are every bit as tight and perfect as everyone says, but I prefer that the tolerances that actually affect cutting performance be the ones that are focused on, rather than (what I consider) cosmetic stuff like blade play, pivot pins, etc. Yeah, they all contribute to the quality and longevity, but for me, the edge and it's attributes are the most important things. As always, YMMV, and it does, considering the breadth of this discussion.

 

[RetiredGuns]

It's been said on this very forum that knives costing much less than a Sebenza can perform 98% of the same tasks.

This analogy failed me when I proclaimed to my Wife that I was faithful 98% of the time!

It's Friday why not...

 

[Ankerson]

The biggest thing here is not if CRK is the best or worth it in the large picture.

The real issue if you will would be if CRK is worth it to the people who own them or are thinking about spending the money on them.

They are good knives and the HT was changed for the better on the sample that I fully tested (Umnumzaan) as it was much harder than the paper said it was being 59.5 HRC and S30V so it did perform very well, on par with Spyderco's S30V so whatever CRK did they hit it right on IMO.

In the end people just have to decide what they want, how much they want to spend and what level of performance they expect edge retention wise, once they make those choices they will know what they want or need personally.

It's an individual choice in the end that they have to make as the knives aren't cheap.

Just don't expect to be wowed right away when you pick one up, one has to own one for awhile to realize the benefits of them and they do hold their value so they can be sold off if one doesn't fir their own needs etc.

 

[unit]

I have heard much about CRK here, and in other places.

But $400.00+ is an awful lot for a knife!

I would like to know, if anybody here can tell me, what it is about Chris Reeve knives that makes them so special.

Sure, the easy answer is: they just..feel great!

But that's not an answer, if you see what I mean. Chris Reeve starts out with steel and machinery, same as any other maker, and ends up with a product which impresses every person who encounters it.

So what does he do different?

I did not read what anyone else said...I am sure there are some good comments (and perhaps a few ridiculous cries of fan-fare).

It can not be ignored that CR makes knives with very tight tolerances, and generally delivers very consistent well made knives. Meaning that you are almost certain to receive a knife that works very well in every imaginable aspect of knife function (opening, closing, cutting, carrying). Every aspect of the knife is well thought out, but quite simple in appearance. Nothing is there that is unnecessary.

THAT SAID...

I bought one a few years back and it was exactly what everyone claimed. No more, no less. I honestly do not appreciate it any more than any other well made knife. I gave mine to a good friend who really appreciated it, but insisted on returning it when he found out how much it cost. Months later he decided that he must have one and asked me to find one identical to mine for sale (he wanted S30V and no Idaho stamp) and decided that it was worth the money to him to have that sort of "ooh ahh" feeling every time he used it. And honestly, I get it, but when I pull a knife to make a cut, the extent of my "ohh ahh" comes from the sharpness of the blade and how easily it separated the media...and that can be achieved for a lot less money (if you have the skills to sharpen a blade well).

I gave the knife back to him...but the point is, he decided that the knife was worth more than the money and was willing to spend for it...and I owned the thing and apparently decided that it was worth less than many of my much less expensive knives (as evidenced by them always finding their way to my pockets and the CRK sitting home in the cabinet).

Only you can tell if it will be worth it for you

 

[TaTaToothy]

I owned a Sebenza briefly (small snakewood) and couldn't justify keeping it. I didn't really like it ergonomically and it just seemed like too much money to have tied up into one of the many knives I own. Honestly I like my Sage 2 better in pretty much every respect. Obviously everyone's priorities are different, and I appreciate that the market will support craftspeople like Mr. Reeve - the knives are just not for me from a price/performance standpoint.

 

[effer]

Overpriced, overhyped? Yes.
Worth it? Probably. Depends on what you're looking for.

As a tool, "NO" you don't get what you pay for, because there are other knives that will outcut and outlast Sebenza at much lower price.
As a collectible "Sure", sky is the limit.