Chris Reeve Knives -what's the difference?

[unit]

Exactly. :thumbup:

Sal also Posted awhile back that if Spyderco held the same tolerances as CRK the knives would cost just as much.

I cannot speak for Sal, nor can I know what he is really thinking, but this sort of statement is exactly what I would expect from a wise businessman speaking about a VERY well respected competitor.

I can speak for my perception of technology and it can not be ignored that great advances are being made all the time, and these advancements seem to be coming at ever-declining prices.

I can speculate that there will come a day when companies like Spyderco (or Kershaw, or Benchmade, or...) can offer CRK tolerances at a lower price. Assuming that machining technology will not improve over time seems silly unless you believe we have already reached our full potential.

That said, a knife's value cannot be assessed on tolerances alone IMO...if it were, a lot of manufacturers should be charging pennies for their knives.

Just to clarify. I have nothing against CRK (but they are not a great fit for me at this point in my life...I will be giving away my last CRK later today). I also have nothing against knives with far lesser tolerances so long as they serve the needs of the buyer. I am serious when I say this, a knife need not look nice or have tight tolerances to be incredibly useful.

 

[Ankerson]

OTOH, Sal is a classy guy who is wise to not trash (rightfully) respected knife makers. I think there is some truth to the idea that modern methods are closing the gap between some much lower cost production knives (perhaps some Spydercos) and CRKs in terms of tolerances. To your point, Sal will never likely make any such comparison between Spydercos and CRKs. Simply put, Spyderco, CRK, and many other companies make some GREAT knives that are good fits for different buyers. No need to compare them, rather enjoy them, celebrate their differences and buy what suits you.

Closing the gap as you said will eat into the bottom line as the equipment to hold those tolerances isn't free or even cheap, then one would have to have people that are skilled enough to work within those tolerances and check to make sure things stay within specs consistently. None of these things will lower the cost of manufacturing or the added man hours it would take to monitor those high tolerances.

Companies just won't stay in business for very long if they are taking a loss on every knife they make.

 

[slimshaneee]

Tolerances are part of it. Engineering is another.
Even the screws on a sebenza seem engineered.
Other knives have flat screws his have a cone shaped mating surface.
Pulling it all together to another level of tightness. Sureness.

Look how long he has been making this knife. Successfully. It is amazing.
Sebenza after sebenza. All nearly perfect.

 

[RetiredGuns]

There are also knives that will do 300% of what a Sebenza will. It is a knife, it cuts stuff. Other knives have more cutting edge, more cutting life, and better handling ergonomics. 98% is only going to be defined by the blade, not by the true flatness of the surface grind of the titanium slabs. And the 30 year old Buck 110s and SAKs still carried and used doesn't say much for having to pay a lot for longevity in the tool.

All very true. I've been collecting and using knives since the mid sixties and most every knife has been a decent to great cutting tool. During my 20 years as a Marine Armorer I carried a Buck 110, slippies, small lockbacks, Gerber TACII, KBARS & later on Leathermans for diversity. I did not even own what many might call a "tactical folder" until well after I retired and stumbled onto Blade Forums. I still have 100+ knives and only 1 Spyderco, 1 Benchmade and 1 Chris Reeve. I've gone through a couple dozen of these knives bringing me to this, I could never justify spending $350 on a knife but after a few years realized I had spent $1500+ on multiple knives. Variety is indeed a lot of fun and it's obvious that folks like to try new knives and many times they are for trade or sale a day after receiving them. For a lot of people knives are not tools but more like sports cards or other collectables. They are bought and stashed for investment or other personal reasons. I decided I would like to own a Sebenza and since I had accumulated a few nice knives was able to trade instead of laying out the cash in one chunk. I am not claiming the end all be all knife or the best slicer on the planet but rather a really, really good knife. Someone else said that it doesn't do one thing perfect but rather so many things good. As for the "worth it" debate, a person has to judge that for them self. One financial fact that is not debatable is their resale power. You aren't going to lose much if anything if you decide to let one go. So "worth it" should be down-played in that sense.

Sebenzas are not for everyone even if they were $100. They really don't need to be defended or trashed as 25 years of success speaks for itself.

 

[JNewell]

Closing the gap? Clearly. Equal? Clearly not. Matters? Individual choice.

OTOH, Sal is a classy guy who is wise to not trash (rightfully) respected knife makers. I think there is some truth to the idea that modern methods are closing the gap between some much lower cost production knives (perhaps some Spydercos) and CRKs in terms of tolerances. To your point, Sal will never likely make any such comparison between Spydercos and CRKs. Simply put, Spyderco, CRK, and many other companies make some GREAT knives that are good fits for different buyers. No need to compare them, rather enjoy them, celebrate their differences and buy what suits you.

Worth and value are something that perhaps should be left to the end user/buyer to rule on.

There are people who would (and do) spend MUCH more than USA retail knife prices (CRK, Spyderco, you name it) due to where they live and delivery/exchange rates/customs/etc issues. These people are shining examples of how value is dictated by the end user/buyer.

I would not ignore the fact that the "tolerance" argument is diminishing over time. There will come a day when production knives will have tolerances as tight as CRKs. I would not expect this to diminish the asking price of CRKs though...there is more to it than that, and people have to figure that out for themself.

It is a concept not unlike custom knives. I have several that look like they have been dragged behind a truck because they have been used very hard. They cost a pretty penny, and they were not bough to look nice. I do not attempt to explain their value to others...not because I can not explain it, rather because they can not understand it.

If you find something that works for you that is better than anything else you have ever tried, you might know what I mean.

I can only suggest that people think about some concepts and decide for themselves what sort of value things hold to them. If I look at a piece of art and I like it, I think to myself, "what would I pay to own this?" then I find the asking price. If they are asking lower than the number in my head, I buy.

Knives can be similar in this regard, but they are functional. It is difficult to assess this functionality before buying, and not everyone will enjoy the functionality in the same manner...thus (I believe) we see threads like this were people are polarized for and against some knives.

 

[unit]

Closing the gap as you said will eat into the bottom line as the equipment to hold those tolerances isn't free or even cheap, then one would have to have people that are skilled enough to work within those tolerances and check to make sure things stay within specs consistently. None of these things will lower the cost of manufacturing or the added man hours it would take to monitor those high tolerances.

Companies just won't stay in business for very long if they are taking a loss on every knife they make.

I respectfully disagree. You make some good points, but I think you are not giving enough consideration to the fact that machines and technology have for years (and will likely continue to) allowed more to get done with fewer people. This same phenomena has resulted in tolerance reduction on (for example) knives like the Manix2, the Sage, and the Gayle Bradley from Spyderco...and the prices of these knives are absolutely lower than similarly made knives by the same company that had slacker tolerances a few years ago.

I am not suggesting that companies will take a loss on knives. If Spyderco tried to produce CRKs tolerances with the equipment they have today, sure they would probably be operating at a loss. I am talking about the future.

Love it, hate it, or realize it. Look at engine parts...technology has allowed for much greater tolerances at lowered costs. I cannot believe that these advances can not transition into other processes.

 

[unit]

Closing the gap? Clearly. Equal? Clearly not. Matters? Individual choice.

Exactly. At this point the gap is closing. I think it would be foolish to assume that it will never be fully closed (or perhaps CRK moves the standard up also?). And what does this say about CRK for us to have this conversation which basically states that he has SET THE STANDARD?!?

I agree with you emphatically, particularly the part about what matters being individual choice.

Further, there is a lot more to a knife than the tolerances. And that is/was my point. CRKs tolerances are only part of the picture.

 

[Ken44]

The difference you ask. There is NO factory folder made as well as the Sebenza. Also, the overall design can't be beat IMO. Tough, simple, and the straight handle gives you cutting control with many cuts, especially when cutting away from yourself.

 

[Ankerson]

I respectfully disagree. You make some good points, but I think you are not giving enough consideration to the fact that machines and technology have for years (and will likely continue to) allowed more to get done with fewer people. This same phenomena has resulted in tolerance reduction on (for example) knives like the Manix2, the Sage, and the Gayle Bradley from Spyderco...and the prices of these knives are absolutely lower than similarly made knives by the same company that had slacker tolerances a few years ago.

I am not suggesting that companies will take a loss on knives. If Spyderco tried to produce CRKs tolerances with the equipment they have today, sure they would probably be operating at a loss. I am talking about the future.

Love it, hate it, or realize it. Look at engine parts...technology has allowed for much greater tolerances at lowered costs. I cannot believe that these advances can not transition into other processes.

They have to buy that equipment, hire or pay for training on how to maintain those tolerances.... That's before one knife is even made.

Some of those knives are not made here in the US as we know and that Company that makes those knives already had the equipment in place for those higher tolerance and F&F levels.

So no they didn't just go out and upgrade their equipment just because they have one model to produce.

Sure things will likely continue to get better over time as some things tend to do, but those things aren't free.

Increased volume can help with those costs as the hit can be spread out over a larger number of product to the point that the volume alone overcomes the additional cost that was needed.

Companies have to justify the cost just like the customers do in the end.

Don't forget how MOST of those Companies are lowering those costs.....

They outsource that work overseas.....

You spoke of cars etc, well a lot of those are made overseas or in Mexico and or parts that are made someplace else then shipped in.

 

[Ken44]

I am talking about the future.

But, but, we are talking about now. I don't have a time machine, and who knows what the future will hold

I hope you are right though:thumbup:

 

[hardheart]

CRKs are sold at MAAP, and MSRP on many other production knives is not far off, so I doubt unit's prediction will take very long to be achieved since production costs and revenue are not so far removed from other brands. As mentioned, brands like Klotzli and Rocksteadi are already there as well, so the technology is not so unique as to provide real barriers for successful brands. Moki and Spyderco's Taichung partner work with a fairly high bar as well.

When Ray Appleton was alive and making knives, the only price on his web page was "starting at $10,000". Now that man had tight tolerances and elegant mechanisms. And we should be so lucky as to get Michael Walker level precision in a folder for under the some $80K one of his auctioned for.

CRKs have pretty good F&F with pretty good materials and pretty good mechanisms.

 

[JNewell]

Agree on tolerances not being an end in themselves. I would *guess* that there will always be a difference between mass production tolerances and what a shop like CRK can achieve, but on the other hand plenty of very nice and very useful custom folders don't come close to CRK tolerances. Which, I guess, leads me to an anecdote that hopefully sheds a little light on the original question.

I handled CRK knives in stores for years but could never persuade myself to spend the asking price of a Sebenza. One Christmas my two boys teamed up and gave me one (blew me right away). After using it for a while, I was totally convinced. I currently own seven Sebs and several other CRK folders and fixed blades. It took a while for the light to come on for me with these, and there's lots of room for other people to decide that CRKs just don't do what they want for a price they'd be willing to pay.

To your point, or one of them anyway, a good knife is more than a bundle of specs on paper - personally, I really like the way everything comes together in a Sebenza or an Umnuzaan.

Exactly. At this point the gap is closing. I think it would be foolish to assume that it will never be fully closed (or perhaps CRK moves the standard up also?). And what does this say about CRK for us to have this conversation which basically states that he has SET THE STANDARD?!?

I agree with you emphatically, particularly the part about what matters being individual choice.

Further, there is a lot more to a knife than the tolerances. And that is/was my point. CRKs tolerances are only part of the picture.

 

[unit]

They have to buy that equipment, hire or pay for training on how to maintain those tolerances.... That's before one knife is even made.

Some of those knives are not made here in the US as we know and that Company that makes those knives already had the equipment in place for those higher tolerance and F&F levels.

So no they didn't just go out and upgrade their equipment just because they have one model to produce.

Sure things will likely continue to get better over time as some things tend to do, but those things aren't free.

Increased volume can help with those costs as the hit can be spread out over a larger number of product to the point that the volume alone overcomes the additional cost that was needed.

Companies have to justify the cost just like the customers do in the end.

Don't forget how MOST of those Companies are lowering those costs.....

They outsource that work overseas.....

No argument that machines cost money. I am not suggesting that anyone is going to run out and retool a factory over night. But certainly you are not suggesting that Spyderco (or others) will never replace the tooling they have? Of course not, stuff wears out, and operating expense is what allows for replacement...and somehow it seems that the equipment *I* replace in my shops keep getting better, and it seems to cost about the same as what I paid the lesser stuff that is now nearly worn out.

It is a slow progression for Spyderco (or others) to close this gap in tolerances, but surely you realize that the gap should be diminishing? If it is not, then consumers would be correct to assume that quality is slipping...because if your quality is not IMPROVING constantly in this world, your value is decreasing.

Look at EVERY consumer product around you (TV, cars/trucks, personal electronics, etc.) would you except the level of quality we had 20 year ago? If so, it seems you are among the minority. What are you using to create these posts?...what would that have cost you 20 years ago if it existed? More importantly what will it be worth in 5 (or even 1) years?

I refuse to discuss outsourcing. That is a different (often political) discussion entirely. The fact remains, tighter tolerances are something that keeps becoming more and more attainable for less and less money.

I will suggest again that tolerances are not everything. And I will disagree that while companies should justify the cost, customers do not have to...and that is what accounts for MANY of the luxuries we all own. And if someone wants the LUXURY of a CRK then by all means they should, because they are fantastic items...but attempting to justify the cost with tolerances or performance has always proved difficult (some would say impossible).

After all, it is pretty hard to justify the cost of anything more than a $0.10 disposable razor blade if you simply want to cut something, because it will do the job...but that is not really what either of us is talking about

 

[Ankerson]

Agree on tolerances not being an end in themselves. I would *guess* that there will always be a difference between mass production tolerances and what a shop like CRK can achieve, but on the other hand plenty of very nice and very useful custom folders don't come close to CRK tolerances. Which, I guess, leads me to an anecdote that hopefully sheds a little light on the original question.

I handled CRK knives in stores for years but could never persuade myself to spend the asking price of a Sebenza. One Christmas my two boys teamed up and gave me one (blew me right away). After using it for a while, I was totally convinced. I currently own seven Sebs and several other CRK folders and fixed blades. It took a while for the light to come on for me with these, and there's lots of room for other people to decide that CRKs just don't do what they want for a price they'd be willing to pay.

To your point, or one of them anyway, a good knife is more than a bundle of specs on paper - personally, I really like the way everything comes together in a Sebenza or an Umnuzaan.

I think the issue is the cost as it always seems to be in a variety of different products.

When things cost more than average there will always be those who will look for reasons to pick them apart and they will be compared to much lower cost items.

In the knife world we usually see the same brands being attacked just because they cost more, and that happens are different cost levels also as there are different cost levels of knives as we all know.

If some are used to spending $25 on a knife then $50 would be a lot and they will bash that $50 knife saying a lot of the same things we are seeing here in this thread in saying that $25 knife is etc, etc.

So in retrospect those who are used to spending $150 ~ $200 on knives will do the same things when some knives cost $400.

In the end the knives are what they are and they cost what they do, some will be able to afford them and buy them while others will not and continue to pick them apart for various reasons and that's the reason why we continue to see threads like this one.

 

[hardheart]

I wouldn't put it to jealousy, as some people buy the knives and then dispose of them, so they obviously had the scratch and the desire at some point. I spent just shy of $5K over the last year on knives, only one was a frame lock - $40. We all judge value on separate criteria, and some knives just aren't what we want, no matter the price.

 

[Ankerson]

I refuse to discuss outsourcing. That is a different (often political) discussion entirely. The fact remains, tighter tolerances are something that keeps becoming more and more attainable for less and less money.

That's your choice, but in the end that's how and the main reason why those costs are going down on some items, or should I say most items we buy these days.

Political or whatever it's a huge factor that isn't going to go away and those lower costs start there.

 

[Ankerson]

I wouldn't put it to jealousy, as some people buy the knives and then dispose of them, so they obviously had the scratch and the desire at some point. I spent just shy of $5K over the last year on knives, only one was a frame lock - $40. We all judge value on separate criteria, and some knives just aren't what we want, no matter the price.

I wasn't targeting you.

I was just saying what we normally see here and there does seem to be more of it as time goes on.

 

[unit]

Agree on tolerances not being an end in themselves. I would *guess* that there will always be a difference between mass production tolerances and what a shop like CRK can achieve, but on the other hand plenty of very nice and very useful custom folders don't come close to CRK tolerances. Which, I guess, leads me to an anecdote that hopefully sheds a little light on the original question.

I handled CRK knives in stores for years but could never persuade myself to spend the asking price of a Sebenza. One Christmas my two boys teamed up and gave me one (blew me right away). After using it for a while, I was totally convinced. I currently own seven Sebs and several other CRK folders and fixed blades. It took a while for the light to come on for me with these, and there's lots of room for other people to decide that CRKs just don't do what they want for a price they'd be willing to pay.

To your point, or one of them anyway, a good knife is more than a bundle of specs on paper - personally, I really like the way everything comes together in a Sebenza or an Umnuzaan.

And yet people are very willing to spend MORE money on these customs for various reasons. I am one, and I can not explain or justify it.

In the end we all decide that there is something about an item that makes us willing to (on unwilling to) buy it. This certain something might be akin to the value we place on an item we created our self, or was created specifically according to our plan.

To me CRKs are an intermediate item that exists between production and custom. They are a fantastic example of what a custom knife can be, but perhaps the buyer does not have the knowledge or desire to spec a build and would rather rely on the skill/talent/wisdom incorporated into this design. They will not be a hit for every owner, but the seem to be for many.

I really do not think it is a safe bet to guarantee that everyone will love them, but many will. Unfortunately, very few get an opportunity like yours (or some other opportunity that removes potential buyers remorse from the equation). That is too bad, no one ever claimed that everyone ought to spend 400+ on a knife

 

[unit]

That's your choice, but in the end that's how and the main reason why those costs are going down on some items, or should I say most items we buy these days.

Political or whatever it's a huge factor that isn't going to go away and those lower costs start there.

I fully agree. But like much of what I have typed it has very little to do with this thread other than to say, if buying "made in the USA" holds value to you, CRK is one way to do that...but again there is more to a CRK than that...and I am not sure anyone can ever put into words a full description of the whole experience.

For some, they simply have to own and use the item to figure it out....and I would suggest it takes a VERY sophisticated knife appreciator to arrive at the conclusion any other way.

 

[Ankerson]

I fully agree. But like much of what I have typed it has very little to do with this thread other than to say, if buying "made in the USA" holds value to you, CRK is one way to do that...but again there is more to a CRK than that...and I am not sure anyone can ever put into words a full description of the whole experience.

For some, they simply have to own and use the item to figure it out....and I would suggest it takes a VERY sophisticated knife appreciator to arrive at the conclusion any other way.

I agree.

I am not a blind CRK fan really, but I do own 2 Umnumzaans because I like them.