Civilian, Axis, or Genesis?

I think that all three are outstanding choices, but my personal choice would be, and is, the Civilian. Here in So Cal, were practically anything can. and be considered a dirk or dagger, the Civilan, with it's re-curved blade is easier to justify as a tool for cutting. Also, I liken just opening it to pumping ashotgun onetime, you get everyone's attention.

Lance
 
Damn. Will, I gotta second Davidb415's point. You're a class act.
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Roadkill: look seriously at what Talmadge says, though...how do you fight? How have you trained? Or how will you train? The Civie has almost no stabbing ability. I'll take everyone's word that is carves like a mother*censored*, but do you want THAT much bias towards cutting, at the expense of a stab? If you do...Civilian. If you don't, Axis.

Or REKAT Carnivour. Or Benchmade AFCK (thats what I have, and I love it). Or EDI Genny (favourably compared to the AFCK).

When you get down to it, though, like everyone else said, you can hardly lose with that selection. Pick one and be happy. Or pick all three *grin*

Mike


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Hey! Uncle Sam!

(_!_) Nyah nyah nyah!

Refund! You lose! :)


 
Several of you have mentioned the REKAT Carnivour, so I figure I should check it out. Who on the internet sells it? I would like to see pictures of it. I've at least eliminated the Genesis from my top 3, but added the REKAT Carnivour in its place.

Later,
roadkill2
 
Coronach, the answer to your questions:
I have had no training with proper ways to defend yourself with a knife. I started carrying one because I didn't feel safe anymore walking the streets alone. I look fairly tough because of the way I dress, and people tend to wanna f*ck with me. I do plan on learning how to defend with a knife properly, in the future.
I am currently leaning towards the Axis because it is slightly cheaper, and I think I could use it better then a Civilian. The Civilian just seems too specialized towards slashing.

Later,
roadkill2
 
"I look fairly tough because of the way I dress, and people tend to wanna f*ck with me."

In that case I feel that getting a knife should be followed by getting a legal degree, because you're going to need it. I'm not trying to upset you, but your first steps towards defense should be towards avoiding confrontations, even if that means at the sacrifice of your wardrobe.

Besides, as I've learned from a good gun-toting friend of mine, you can carry whatever you like if you're clean and polite and wear a V-necked sweater, but I wouldn't be caught dead with a pencil sharpener if I were going out in a trenchcoat or some such these days. Is that fair? No. Is that good sense? Hell yes.

Look, please don't be offended, but don't make yourself a target for violence by looking tough and then get a knife so that you can "back it up." That's just a great way to make sure that "what we hope never happens" WILL happen.

Get some preppy duds, or a T-shirt and jeans, or whatever fits in where you live. Keep your head up, look alert, and walk with confidence. Don't look for trouble and don't look like a victim. And in case that fails, keep a Civilian handy so you can hit fast and RUN.

OK, dismounting soapbox.
 
Sorry Corduroy, but I refuse to change my whole lifestyle because it might get me into trouble. I'm a punk rocker, people don't like me because my hair is always an odd color, they don't like my t-shirts, and they don't like me thinking differently. If I change the way I dress, I will compremise my whole belief system, something I REFUSE to do. People want to f*ck with me for the wrong reason, because I am different. Instead of running away like another sheeple, I'll step up to them, and if they want a fight, they'll get a fight. I carry a knife purely for defense, I prefer a fist fight to anything. I would only pull out my knife if I felt my life was really on the line. Please don't assume I think I'm some bad ass, because I'm not. I am just trying to survive without compremising my beliefs.

Later,
roadkill2
 
You made the right choice. No matter how much people insist that the Civilian is the best defensive knife, the fact is -- especially for someone untrained -- a stab is a natural and potent move, and it makes little sense to completely sacrifice it for a more specialized tool, unless you've been trained for it.

The Carnivour is another knife you must look at. I don't have one yet, but I'm expecting to like it as much as I do the Axis.

Joe
 
Just wanted to welcome Roberta de Asis to Bladeforums. Congrats on your first post and hopefully many more in the near future. Not to be too demanding, but I'd love to see any pictures you can scrounge up on the Benchmade custom bali-songs.

Ian
 
I think I know where you are coming from, or rather, I knew. When I first saw the news about Littleton, my first thoughts were ones of grief. My second thoughts were ones of relief, because if it had happened five years earlier I know I'd be getting hassled left and right for resembling those disturbed young men involved.

I was a freak; every school has a few, and it's nothing to be ashamed of. Long hair, black trenchcoat, dark clothes, and not a care who noticed. It has nothing to do with violence for most young people, just a desperate desire not to be herded in with the masses.

Then I realized that my beliefs were in my head, not in my clothes or my hair or anything else I showed the world. I don't need to be persecuted for thinking differently just to prove to myself I AM thinking differently. So I went low profile.

Yeah, I'm not very good at it, still too much black in my wardrobe and I don't own any V-neck sweaters like my better-concealed friends. But at least now I can ride a bus without every old person eyeing me like a potential threat, every young bad-ass eyeing me like a potential challenge. Even cops return a smile and will chat with me if I start a conversation. I'm camouflaged, I'm on the inside, you get it?

You're right, people will f**k with you because you're different, and that's not fair. But it is true, and you do have to deal with it responsibly if you want to get by in the world. A knife isn't the answer; the best defense is not fighting at all, and yes, that may mean sacrificing what you wear or how you act. But remember, who you are is in your head, not in the clothes you wear or the way you posture.

Please, you can be safe on the outside and still be yourself on the inside. And I think "blending in" is fun... 'cause now I can carry whatever I want
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.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)

[This message has been edited by Corduroy (edited 07 May 1999).]
 
Excellent point about the stabbing Joe.

That's one of the reasons I'm looking at the Carnivour and a few others capable of efficient stabbing and slashing.

roadkill2,

You can't make a wrong choice among the three you mentioned. Hope you like the one you get.

The Civilian is still my favorite, but like any other tool, you need to know how to use it. To me this means you really need some minimal level of training in defense. Part of the training needs to be the mindset required to actually use the tools. I believe there are some who cannot achieve the proper mindset necessary to defend themselves. God bless em, I hope they always have someone there with them who can respond appropriately.

The best defense is usually awareness and avoidance. A normal part of good self defense and martial arts training includes these aspects as well as the physical training.
 
Bert - hello, congrats on the award. Well deserved. Say Hi to Les and tell him I need help moderating an AKTI forum.

Roadkill2 - Slash & run is "defensive" hitting a finger is all you need with a Civilian. Stabbing a finger is not going to "save you".

The G10 Civilian with one steel liner is holding 600 inch/lbs of force at the lock. Though I believe that the Axis is very strong, I haven't seen any figures on the Axis lock yet. I would want to see an actual "break" test on the "Axis" before I would "assume" such superiority. Just a guarded opinion.
sal
 
Roadkill,

I looked at your posts several times and just felt that I had to say something. You say people mess with you because you look different. Well, maybe you should rethink what kind of statement you are trying to make. If you look like your typical
"punk rocker" (whatever that is nowadays) you are exactly the kind of person most tactically aware people will single out as someone to keep a very close eye on. If you are trying to look outlandish as a carefully contrived expression of just how different and unique you are, you're in for a lot of grief. People do draw first impressions based on appearance. It might not be right but that's the way it is. I in no way wish to judge you for your choice of dress or lifestyle but, if your gonna walk the streets looking like a street tough, expect to be deemed one and treated accordingly by both nice and not so nice people. If you are going to step up and be ready to fight because someone looks at you funny, maybe you should stop giving them a reason to consider you an undesirable by your appearance.

By the way, I'm 31, the Vice President of a very successful 83 year old business and have 2 arms full of rather menacing tattos that I got from my days in the Marines.
I wear long sleeved shirts and suits to work and when I'm out in public for the very same reasons you get messed with. I'm still the same old Sergeant Canis, I've just learned that what makes me what I am is my actions and thew way I treat others and not my "what the hell are you lookin' at appearance"

But if you disagree with me
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go for it! It's you life!

I hope that I will not now be judged the most judgemental person in the forums, but I've had to give this same speech to many a gen x'er that has come in for a job interview looking like they just crawled out of a Marilyn Manson video.

I assure you the above was stated with the best of intentions
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Chris Canis
 
Mr. Glesser, any chance of you or one of your competitors taking some of these figures over to Cold Steel and making them give their diatribes on lock strength a rest? I know it would just be playing the game they want you too, but...

One of these days I'd just like to see them put in their place. Not beaten, just forced to admit that other folks' products have some merit, an attitude we've seen from both you and Mr. Fennell in this thread. Maybe those Battle Mistresses they have now will do the trick (fingers crossed).

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

------------------

-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Corduroy - Politics and Marketing all have their "styles". I would prefer not to judge them. I'm just sharing some of the test results that we at Spyderco perform. Our goal is simply to "push the performance envelope". that is what Spyderco is all about. (even if it makes the products unusual in appearance).

I would rather think positively of Lynn for caring about lock strength. "Yelling" about it (in whatever manner) still calls everyone's attention to lock strength, which is, in the long run, a good thing.

We've been testing locks and "spinewhacking" knives since 1981. We feel that is our responsibility as a manufacturer to provide the ELU with as safe as possible products.

Lynn should be commended for his efforts at making strong locks (safe knives). Even if his marketing "style" may not be what you or I would do.
sal
 
Sal -- according to BM's ad, their Axis lock is rated to handle a negative load (?) of 200 lbs. I don't know how this equates to the Civilian's capacity to hold 600 inch/lbs of force at the lock.

I hope somebody can explain the difference in thes numbers.

------------------
"It is better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot." -- Anonymous


 
Titan - I'm not sure of what a "negative" load means in tems of their test.

Our tests are faily simple. We have a machine that breaks things using a controlled pressure. the blade is held fast in a fixture. The pressure is applied directly to the handle at a measured distance from the pivot. The amount of pressure (from the readout) multiplied by the distance gives inch/lbs of force required to break object. It is a steady increase in pressure and not a "whack". 200 lbs of force times 2.4 inches = 480 inch/lbs of force.

We will be happy to break anyones knives. We will not at this time report those findings publicly. We will discuss them with the manufacturer to help them develop stronger locks.

We are currently trying to establish some time of measurment standard that works for all (primarily for the forum). eg; This folder made by XYZ co. model #1234 was rated at over 400 inch/lbs force at the pivot to break the lock - suitable for heavy duty use (medium duty use, etc).

Anyone that has any good ideas on this would be appreciated (probably on another thread).
sal
 
By negative load, I believe Benchmade is referring to how much weight a knife can take before it closes. The REKAT Carnavour with a Talonite blade would (I guess) take superiority over the BM Axis. Do we have to give you a knife to break or will you break whatever we want for free?
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Try a Battle Mistress and see how it holds up to your break test
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Stompy -- by your explanation does it follow that the lockback Civilian has greater lock strength than the Axis, then?

Sal -- We really need an industry standard tests on lock strength to arrive at the "greater truth". It looks like your company has the necessary equipment and willingness to volunteer its use. I know you know its probably not a good idea for Spyderco itself to conduct a public[/b] test; an independent body such as BladeForums can do this without somebody complaining of the tester being biased.

I agree, we need a seperate thread on this topic....

[This message has been edited by Titan (edited 09 May 1999).]
 
Although I really like the looks and principle behind the Civillian, I have my reservations about actually carrying this model. I think slashing is great for a defensive knife, but isn't there a risk of missing your target and subsequently 'upsetting' your opponent? In that case you would want a stab to cause more lethal damage, right? Or in the words of Massad Ayoob: This knife doesn't really allow you to step up further in the lethal force continiuum.Or is this a problem that can be solved through specialized training? Please educate me.
 
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