Clip Design Discussion

Ron Andersen

Ron Andersen

Joined
Mar 23, 2000
Messages
3,769
From time-to-time, I will hear comments about a lack of faith in the durability of the skeletonized clip we use on the Vision and Pentegon Elite series. With the deliberate design-enhanced features, to the outstanding feedback we have received from users, we think we have a winner here. Our clip failure rate has been quite low (all clips can fail) and interaction I have had with consumers who have expressed distrust in the clip have never actually owned one nor had one fail. Honestly comes out with a sheepish smile when some of those whose have had them fail will say it was their own fault (not a warranty condition, though we treat these as warranty regardless of the situation in that it failed).

Here are some of the design thoughts related to this clip:
  • The clip's skeletonized nature allows for more grip and stability when opening and handling the knife.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Maybe skeletonized clip looks not as pretty as solid one, but it provides better additional leverage for the fingers when opening knife. Allows to save some grams of knife weight also. From Night Vision review by Sergiusz Mitin</font>
    Click to expand...
  • The clip, being made of a springy metal, allows for more travel of the clip when stressed, then bouncing back to normal, resulting in less failures. Because of this princible, we believe it has become more resilient than some other clip designs.
  • With the hollow area being in contact with your clothing, there adds an agressiveness to the grip (areas for the edges of the clip to "grip" to fabric) that make the knife more secure in place.
  • Last resort: two words...Lifetime guarantee. We'll take care of you! Always with a
    smile.gif
    .

On our first generation Pentagon Elite, with liner lock, we saw some breakage at the two crease points in the clip design (see photo example of older style clip here). We have modified it for added strength, resulting a complete fix of a minor design flaw (see photo example of modified style clip here).

I'm open for your experience and comments, so let me know what you think.





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Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Ron,
I really appreciate the proactive manner in which you have handled comments about the skeletonized clips. I think I understand the reasoning behind them. But I have to say that from a practical standpoint, they are just not as strong as solid clips. They bend much more easily and are difficult to straighten. Look at the experience Microtech had with the introduction of the LCC and its skeletonized clip. Every review on the forums said what a great, tough knife it was, except for the clip, which bent easily. Numerous people said the only way to carry one was in a sheath, because of the clip. MT was deluged with complaints about clip problems. They had so many send-backs that they changed their official policy, and started sending out solid replacement clips to ELUs in the field. I own 3 different models of the LCC and have had to go through this on each of them.
I would be willing to bet that if you asked the people who are asking for replacements which they'd rather have, they would overwhelmingly ask for a solid replacement.
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member
 
I have no experience with the clip in question, but if I was interested in the knife I would not hesitate to buy one as Sog customer service is without equal. If there was any problem I am sure it would be taken care of very well. That being said, the P.E. is a knife I have not checked out before. It is kind of growing on me. As soon as I get my Sebenza paid for, I may just put that clip to the test. Keep up the great work Ron@sog.

edited for grammar.
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Brian
The first knife was probably used to cut stuff.

[This message has been edited by bteel (edited 03-24-2001).]
 
Hi David (and everyone),

Thanks for insightful response. My philosophy of customer services is to take the good, the bad, and the ugly all the the R&D table for consideration.

Since SOG has been far from "deluged" with broken clips (last check was a bit less than 1% of sales), and with our design philosophy, we have felt confident that things were going in the "good" category.

With the low failure rate, but receiving some negative comments mostly from consumers who are afraid of the clip failing (of course with some exceptions like yourself), we haven't brought the "bad" to the R&D table since the original design enhancement shown above (hopefully we are far from the "ugly" stage
smile.gif
unless that might come from a personal opinion of the aesthetics side of clip
smile.gif
).

The purpose of this thread is to allow for the discussion we at SOG can have on the design of this clip and give due consideration if redesign is needed. A topic I just pitched yesterday, was a blacked clip for more stealthy carry (at least for an aftermarket upgrade); a suggestion made by several forumites.

Let your comments come in and I promise it will be reviewed by our design team. Two type of questions I'm most looking for (but certainly not limited to) are:

  • For those who have had failures, how they broke, and was it under conditions that any clip would have broken, or conditions in that other clips would have not failed. Did it live up to expectations when it failed? By way of example, some people have caught the clip so hard, they tore their pants as well. That would be an example of a reasonable failure (Steve, your description in the General Blade Forum, I would categorize as unreasonable failure where other clips might succeed...standing up from a chair.)
  • For those who have this style clip and have found it outstanding, living up to your expectations.

Now it everyone's turn. Comments will receive valued consideration.


------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 03-24-2001).]
 
If the PE clip is so good, why doesn't SOG use this skeleton clip on all its folders and all the new models coming out?

Quit making excuses and fix the problem. Ford and Firestone make a lot of excuses about the Firestone tires that blew up and the whole matter ended up blowing up in their face.
 
Hi Rogue,

Actually, SOG does use this clip design on most of its premier folders. I have listed below a full accounting of all SOG folders with clips:

Current SOG knives with skeletonized clips:
  • SOG Vision
  • Night Vision
  • X-Ray Vision
  • Pentagon Elite I
  • Pentagon Elite II

Current SOG knives without skeletonized clips:
  • AutoClip Series (knife designed around a unique clip design)
  • JetEdge I (knife design predating new clip, and unique to the JetEdge I & II)
  • JetEdge II (same)
  • AccessCard (knife design requiring a unique clip)

Regarding new knives coming out, we have only one folder sporting a clip due out this year. The Sculptura has a 2" blade. The clip stated above is 2.75" long and would not fit on this knife. Also, the Sculptura (as the name references), is also an artistic expression, requiring a clip to match its design.

Your tire example makes me question if you are aware of personal injury related to clip failure. If so, please get in contact with me. As of right now, we have had not one issue addressed to us along these lines that I am aware of.

Regarding making excuses, I stated our rationale, then opened up a forum for people to share their input in and experiences with its design. You, like everyone else, are welcome to talk about your experiences and design suggestions. I presented the topic for open discussion, asking for constructive (positive or negative) input, and in a respectful tone.

Your experiences are valued. Do you any tangible and construtive suggestions we can work with? Here is a great venue to share them, or I can be reached via email or phone during business hours (425.771.6230, ext. 228).

My personal observations of the clip are positive, but it is yours (forumites at-large) from which I'd like to hear.

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 03-24-2001).]
 
Is SOG skeletonized clip good, bad or ugly? Think this depends a lot on viewpoint and even more on what you do want to prove
wink.gif

Is it weaker than solid clip? Sure, this wouldn't be any secret - just multiplication of steel durability and crosscut square...
Another question is - how much weaker? Do we compare the clip durability with our hand strength or with real need to hold knife securely? After I have read this thread and the one http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/002954.html on General Discussion Forum I decided to make experiment. I brutally bent the free end of my SOG Night Vision clip away from handle for about inch or more. After I released it the free end stayed 3 mm (about 1/8 of inch) away from handle. Only 5 minutes I needed to fix this, 4 of them took me to find my set of screwdrivers. Here is worth to say that my clothing thickness what clip should match in real life is at least 10 times thinner.

On the other hand I'm able to bend and even to break with my hands each clip, also solid.

Why I'm telling this so particularly? Maybe just to prove that thing what one man has made another man always is ale to destroy? This is known for a long-long time...

Well, now another side of the coin. Let someone tell me why heavier Night Vision with weaker clip seats in my pocket more securely than noticeably lighter Jet Edge 2 with solid, polished steel clip?

 
Thanks Ron@SOG for being here to answer our questions and hear our complaints.

My suggestion is to take an online poll of those who prefer the skeleton clips and those who prefer the solid clips. I think that listening to customers and making adjustments to your products will result in repeat buyers and more new buyers.
 
Hi Sergiusz,

Thanks, as always, for input from the knife sage.

I had avoided bringing this, but since you did, other knives of both SOG's and other manufactures do not hold firmly in the pocket and the user's faith in the clip/knife is diminished. I personally love the JetEdge II that mentioned by Sergiusz, but my personal experience is that the smooth and polished clip, along with its smooth carbon fiber handles, make for a combination that it quite slippery. Thank goodness I never lost my knife, but after doing tasks like crouching, the knife can be "pushed" out of the pocket, and more times than I'm comfortable with, has landed on the floor.

A couple of notes, the SOG Vison (with smooth titanium handes) uses the skeletonized clip. With it being nearly similar to the JetEdge with regarding to a smooth handle surface but using the skeletonized clip, I've never had it work its way out of my pocket because of the hollowed out areas gripping the clothes. I've also retrofited a skeletonized clip onto my JetEdge II (also had the blade beadblasted to match the clip), and have since has no fear from losing it like I had previously. I'm convinced the clip design adds security against easy and accidental loss.

Another aspect of possible failure is, what damage will occur during the event. If the clip is so strong that it cannot break, stress my apply itself other places. In this case, the screws holding it in and/or the handle material. I have see some knives strip the screw holes, while others (like a knife I have with alluminum handles) that may pivot sideways, grinding arch-like grooves into the alluminum handle.

Thanks for your insightful input. You're always welcome around here.




------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Hi Rogue,

That is a good idea. So as a continuation of this thread, focusing on owners with experience, as each person using a knife with a skeletonized clip (thus a person with personal, hands-on experience), in addition to any constructive thoughts on its design you may be sharing, just add in your post, "Yes, I like the clip as it is designed," or "No, I do not like the clip and wish changes..." and support with you thoughts and experience. Make sure to tell me which knife you're using.

Thanks Rogue! I appreciate this insightful, constructive input. Listening to those who have intimate (hands-on) knowledge of our knives is what this thread (and forum) is about. I stated SOG's design rationale not to make excuses, but rather to help others understand that our R&D people put a lot of thought into its develpment and believe it is an excellent design.

But through open discussions like this, maybe we missed something and the clip could be improved. I can promise you, SOG is committed to being at the high-end of the knife industry and wants real "field testers" to let us know well (or not...whichever) our knives really work. Perfection is not agained through complecency.

[ 03-26-2001: Message edited by: Ron@SOG ]
 
I have carried a Pentagon Elite II which has a skeletonized clip, and I found the skeletonized clip to be just as functional as a solid clip. When I first got the knife, I applied larger forces to the skeletonized clip than I would normally apply to a solid clip, and the skeletonized clip held up just fine.

There is another issue for SOG to consider though. If much of the public perceives skeletonized clips to be unreliable, then using them will hurt sales even if skeletonized clips proved superior to solid clips.

-Mike Burnett

[ 03-26-2001: Message edited by: Mike Burnett ]
 
Even if my Pentagon Elite II is still in the mail on its way to me, I must ask you all:

What kind of force are you going to use on the folder? As I see it, a skeletonized clip offers enough resistance and durability, provided that the steel is of good quality to begin with. A folder is supposed to be used for light work, otherwise we would buy a fixed blade. <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0">
Then there is of course the matter of design. Personally, I prefer black solid clips, but you can't have all your knives that way. What a boring world it would be... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
When I receive the PE, I will add a mini review of it.
 
I love the idea of having an open forum to critique design...wish more companies had this level of customer service. I own several SOG knives (Sogwinder II, Recon Bowie, Pentagon Elite II, Air SOG, Vision (Titanium) and Night Vision (G-10). I would have to say that I would prefer a more solid design for a clip. I personally have never broken a clip, but one of the guys at work broke the clip off his Pentagon Elite...no kidding, it broke when he crouched down and it twisted in his pocket. I own plenty of other knives with solid clips, and I've never experienced breakage on any of them. However, the skeletonized clip really doesn't instill me with loads of confidence---call it superstition, but it's how I feel. The only other 'gripe' I've ever had with any SOG knife was the quality of the sheath that came with the Recon Bowie. I ended up contacting Blade-Tech Industries and had them custom manufacture a Kydex sheath for it (very possibly the best $60 I've ever spent). The factory sheath made no provisions whatsoever for lefties (which I am), and the blade literally cut the inside edge of the sheath every time I put the knife in or pulled it out. This is the only letdown I've ever had from SOG (when I called my dealer, no one at SOG could offer any solutions to this), so I was forced to 'go it alone'. I absolutely ADORE the knife, and wanted to be able to use it, but without being able to properly carry it, it was only so much useless iron. With the new sheath, it's truly a dream come true ---but did I really need to look elsewhere for a sheath for a knife whose price and quality really screams for more (and better)? I know I'm kind of off topic here (sorry), but you might want to contact the guys at Blade-Tech. Between SOG and Blade-Tech's design teams, you'd really have a killer combo.
Thanks for the forum, and thanks for giving me a place to vent! Kudos to SOG (and Ron), and I will continue to support your company in the future.

 
Hey, Ron, I've not read every word in the thread, so if you've addressed this, thanks for your patience.

My question: Have you folks actually proactively tested different clips for retention strength and other clip-related issues? The only one I have bent was from another maker and it was skeletonized.
 
Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.

Mike: You have a valid thought about public perception. One I'm trying to change?
smile.gif
Or at least try to correct.

Thomas E.: The clip is designed with durability in mind which is targeted to be on par with most clips on the market. It is meant to be different (rather than "just the same old clip" design others are using). One of my most favorite non-SOG knives has the most boring clip!

Mr. Purple: Comments and input are always sincerely welcome here at SOG...even when we don't ask for it. Thanks for your other kind comments. Sorry about the sheath issue with your Recon Bowie. I've only had a couple of calls I can remember on this topic and think I remember yours. I wished we could have done more, but without a custom leather shop on site, we aren't able to accommodate everyone. The right-handed draw is consistent with the original we replicated from Vietnam.

And Mr. Marshman: I'm not aware of any "scientific" testing of various clips, but I have bent the snot out of a number of different clips for a personal perspective. What I found out was that skeletonized clip sprung back into shape much easier. With a few exceptions that I've heard, to seriously bend or break this clip, some really serious stress need be applied. Sometimes the failure may not be the clip bending or breaking. I have an aluminum handled knife where the clip rotated in a partial circle, grinding large grooves in the handle material. Others may strip out or break their screws. (Stop by next time you're in my neighborhood...Maybe I won't be tied up this time!)

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Sergiusz Mitin:

[SOG skeletonized]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I brutally bent the free end of my SOG Night Vision clip away from handle for about inch or more. After I released it the free end stayed 3 mm (about 1/8 of inch) away from handle.</font>
Click to expand...

I did the same thing with the clip on the X-Ray Vision and yes it will take a decent flex and sets at a high angle. However it is *much* weaker than a full body clip in side stresses :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/vision_bent_clip.jpg

I loaned the Vision out to a friend to get some use on it for a couple of months while I am busy with other blades. In less than 2 days he comes back showing me the deformed clip. It had snagged on something while he was wearing it.

You can't get this kind of bend in a full clip as the strength is *much* greater in that plane because of the huge amount of material as compared to a cut out clip.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-11-2001).]
 
As Ron mentioned, I would much rather break a clip than strip out the handle, which is common enough with many designs, such as the Buck Strider, to warrant comment.
 
Hi Cliff,

If you are in need of a replacement clip, let me know and email me with a mailing address. I'll get one off to you.

Regarding not being able to get the same kind of bend with a full clip, you are right and this is by design. In our testing, if someone catches a clip with enough force, something will need to give -- the handle material where the screws anchor, the clip itself, or the pants. From our research, a clip with flexible material is most forgiving on both the pants and the knife, and most of the time will spring right back to its original position (a clip can be made too strong and stout!). Also, if the clip does catch with enough force, does the user want the clip's screw holes stripped out under non-warrantable conditions? Or to have a pair of pants destroyed? The clip is the easiest to replace when a consumer has an accident. The amount of force we've found it takes to seriously and permanently bend or destroy the clip is quite a bit, far exceeding anything that the knife should normally see.

Also, you may be interested in checking out an innovative new clip design for the X-Ray Vision and Mini X-Ray Vision coming out soon. It will ride 100% low on the pocket because instead of bolting to the side of the knife, it enters into a slit in the butt of the knife where the two parts of the handle comes together. It will also be reversible.

MXV72.JPG




------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Ron,

That clip *looks* stronger (without having tried it myself, obviously).

In my case, I have a folder which I do like a lot, but the clip bugs me -- it is *far* too weak, and bends far too easily. So then I have to break out the Torx wrenches, take the clip off, restraighten it, reattach it. Blech.

Ron, thanks to SOG for setting the bar in customer service (and responding to customer feedback)!!
 
Cliff,
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">However it is *much* weaker than a full body clip in side stresses</font>
Click to expand...
How much weaker? And what you are comparing clip strength with - your hand strength or the need to hold knife securely in your pocket? The light bulb's glass is very weak comparing with man's hand strength - does it mean we should make bulbs of thicker glass?

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want to prove that skeletonized clip is definitely better than solid one. But I can see no reasons to try to prove that it is with clear-cut worse also. This is one of possible solutions with all its advantages and drawbacks, let everyone choose what he likes better.

I probably can agree with Ron: if you will stand up from the chair violently and catch with the knife's handle chair's backrest - if something should break let it be the clip, cheap and easily replaceable part. Something like the fuse in electrical installation...

[This message has been edited by Sergiusz Mitin (edited 05-11-2001).]
 
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