CNC.......What do you think?

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
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We have been chatting recently about definitions such as "handmade", "handcrafted"......

I once disdained CNC, as did many makers that I know, but have seen some terribly complex knives turned out using CNC equipment, and now have no problem purchasing a knife that I like, CNC or not.

My major issues, and the question put to the Customs Forumites is......

1. Would knowing that a knife was made using CNC equipment cause you to pass on it?

2. How many of a particular model being crafted would cause you to pause, considering the knife more of a "studio model" a la William Henry, than a "handmade" or "handcrafted" knife?

3. How much of the actual work(maybe percentage wise) done on the knife including programming by maker is necessary for you to consider the knife as being "made" by the person who's name appears on the knife.

I DO consider knives by makers who are committed to sole authorship to bring something "extra" to the table, but it is not an all or nothing issue with me. Frankly, R.J. Martin is the person responsible for my looking at this issue in a new light, but R.J. will never be accused of "flooding the market" or of being a miniature factory, because he just doesn't make that many knives, annually(too much fishin', I think;) )

What other areas of concern have I not brought up concerning CNC vs. "True" handmade, custom made or hand-crafted?

This is not meant to be a contentious thread, it has been put forth in the hope for honest dialogue. Let's try not to get bogged down in semantics, Mmmkay?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The answers below must be taken in context. At this point I only collect forged knives, and CNC and forged don't go together. However, before my collecting shifted to forged knives, I did purchase a knife made by CNC.

1) The fact that a knife was made by CNC would not cause me to pass on it. RJ Martin, Larry Davidson, Darrel Ralph and many others that use CNC produce knives that I find extremely appealing.

2) I don't know if I can put a number on this. If a maker made 500 of a certain model, but did them all by hand, it wouldn't give me pause at all. That also applies to knives that have been made using CNC/CAD technology. As long as the finishing work is done by the maker, the number of individual knives made of a certain model doesn't matter to me. If on the other hand, CNC is being used to do most of the finishing work as well, then it doesn't matter to me how many of a certain model are made; I would consider those knives to be high end production, not custom.

3)This one really depends on the knife. I normally prefer my knives to have had everything except the piddly stuff done by the maker that's name goes on the knife. However, I have purchased knives that have had the heat treat outsourced. There is also a dichotomy that presents itself here. I have no problem with the way Loveless does things, but it is something I wouldn't accept from anyone else.

CNC can be used to do the basic blade and handle profiling, it can also be used to just about fully produce a knife, or anything inbetween. CNC machines can put in the bevels, do the hollow, sabre, flat, convex, etc. grinds and even do the polishing. These machines can produce knives that only need to be assembled. If it is taken to that extent, I personally do not care if all the programming was done by the person who puts his/her name on the blade. To me these would be production knives.
 
Keith, I think CNC and forging are going together more than you might realize... I know of several forgers who use CNC on a regular basis. Bailey Bradshaw has posted on this forum about his use of CNC machinery in his own shop.

Which brings me to the conclusion... CNC machinery – like electricity once upon a time – is and will continue to become pervasive in knifemaking. Craftspeople have always gravitated to the best, most efficient tools they could buy or invent.

Personally, I enjoy using my CNC milling machine – except when I make a mistake. If I had the dough ray me (Woody Guthrie) I'd buy a small CNC lathe tomorrow. Mastering CNC machinery is like mastering analog machinery: it takes time, dedication and practice. Just like mastering freehand grinding on the belt grinder.

R.J. Martin was one of the Makers who generously gave me advice when I was considering buying my milling machine and one point he made is of particular importance to this discussion: A CNC machine doesn't necessarily speed up the knifemaking process for the "custom" maker; it does bring a new level precision to the process which is virtually unattainable by hand. How true that is!

Many people lacking practical experience with CNC machines seem to think it's a matter of pushing a few buttons and watching finished knives (or parts) land on the workbench. Not so. Oftem making just a few parts on a CNC machine actually takes longer than making then by "hand" using analog tooling. The CNC machines do bring other advantages that are of great advantage.

I spent about 2.5 hours yesterday setting up and programming to make a pair of grip scales. Machining time was then less than ten minutes. I could have cut out and made those grip scales by hand in much less time, but they would then only fit one knife. My goal however was parts interchangeability. I want these scales to fit any knife of that model that I make. And with the CNC machine they will. I could use the setup to make 100s of grip scales if I had 100s of pieces of wood of exactly that size, but that's not what I need.

I continue to feel that transparency and honesty are the key elements in the relationship between a craftsman and his customers. Customers should ask questions regarding the product that they find important and the Maker should provide truthful answers to those questions. Then its up to each individual customer to decide whether or not to make a purchase.

I could probably write an entire magazine article on this topic but right now I gotta head out into the kitchen and get some breakfast... the CNC machine is waiting for me in the shop and it gets pissed if I'm late! :-)
 
I think this topic was discussed here many times already. For me - if I like the knife (and the price is OK) I do not care whether it was made by a person or CNC machine. Result is important not the technique.

David
 
I will just echo Kevin Wilkin's comments concerning Bailey,who commented on his use of CNC machinery allowing him more creativity and he is up front about his use of it.
No problem with me. :)

Doug
 
I think Rick Hinderer just purchased a CNC machine and I just recently purchased a Hinderer XM-18. He was up front about the machine and it made no difference to me, but I appreciated that he didn't try to hide the fact. By the way the XM-18 is a great knife, no matter how it is made. And probably one of the great deals in the custom knife game.
 
I realize that a CNC machine can be used for making parts of any knife, but to this point I haven't seen any that are used to forge a blade. It could be done, but I doubt that there is enough of a market for a company to come up with such a machine.
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
Keith, I think CNC and forging are going together more than you might realize... I know of several forgers who use CNC on a regular basis. Bailey Bradshaw has posted on this forum about his use of CNC machinery in his own shop.

Which brings me to the conclusion... CNC machinery – like electricity once upon a time – is and will continue to become pervasive in knifemaking. Craftspeople have always gravitated to the best, most efficient tools they could buy or invent.

Personally, I enjoy using my CNC milling machine – except when I make a mistake. If I had the dough ray me (Woody Guthrie) I'd buy a small CNC lathe tomorrow. Mastering CNC machinery is like mastering analog machinery: it takes time, dedication and practice. Just like mastering freehand grinding on the belt grinder.

R.J. Martin was one of the Makers who generously gave me advice when I was considering buying my milling machine and one point he made is of particular importance to this discussion: A CNC machine doesn't necessarily speed up the knifemaking process for the "custom" maker; it does bring a new level precision to the process which is virtually unattainable by hand. How true that is!

Many people lacking practical experience with CNC machines seem to think it's a matter of pushing a few buttons and watching finished knives (or parts) land on the workbench. Not so. Oftem making just a few parts on a CNC machine actually takes longer than making then by "hand" using analog tooling. The CNC machines do bring other advantages that are of great advantage.

I spent about 2.5 hours yesterday setting up and programming to make a pair of grip scales. Machining time was then less than ten minutes. I could have cut out and made those grip scales by hand in much less time, but they would then only fit one knife. My goal however was parts interchangeability. I want these scales to fit any knife of that model that I make. And with the CNC machine they will. I could use the setup to make 100s of grip scales if I had 100s of pieces of wood of exactly that size, but that's not what I need.

I continue to feel that transparency and honesty are the key elements in the relationship between a craftsman and his customers. Customers should ask questions regarding the product that they find important and the Maker should provide truthful answers to those questions. Then its up to each individual customer to decide whether or not to make a purchase.

I could probably write an entire magazine article on this topic but right now I gotta head out into the kitchen and get some breakfast... the CNC machine is waiting for me in the shop and it gets pissed if I'm late! :-)
Click to expand...

Well said and captures my thoughts exactly.:thumbup:
 
When I purchase a knife, I buy design, exclusiveness, & quality of the HT & FF. I don't really care if CNC was used, but I do care if the piece is but one of many of similar design.

So suppose a maker uses CNC to carve many facets into a knife blade or handle, something that would be impossible with hand grinding, then this is great. Or they use CNC speed up some of the more standard operations (handle, fittings, or blade blanks), then that's fine with me.

If a maker produces a large number of similar knives, then I will take that into consideration in my purchase decision, whether CNC was used or not.
 
Joss pretty much said it. The quality of the knife (edge, design, fit, finish) is far more important IMO than the methods used to manufacture it.
 
I don't buy the "soul" argument of a knife, I think that's just romantic delusional BS.

So in a nutshell, "quality" is the only measure of a knife, not how it's made.
 
DaveH said:
I don't buy the "soul" argument of a knife, I think that's just romantic delusional BS.

So in a nutshell, "quality" is the only measure of a knife, not how it's made.
Click to expand...

Now, that was a COMPLETELY contentious statement, bound to ruffle more feathers than necessary, you wanna edit, maybe, and I'll do the same?

STeven
 
I think that in the next few years, the use of CNC equipment will become a true asset to a maker-Something that makes his knives more desireable, rather than something that are considered "less" than something made without CNC equipment. Perhaps we are there already-It's hard to say.

The merits of CNC use have been discussed many times here-Usually from the perspective of putting the maker who uses CNC equipment on the defensive. Fortunately, "The times, they are a changin'...".

Read the comment in the last post, "The XM-18 is a great knife, no matter how it is made." My take on this would be "The XM-18 is a great knife because of how it is made." Rugbymatt is right on the money. Rick's use of CNC equipment is helping him make better knives. That's what CNC use can do. Makers who use CNC equipment, as Kevin so correctly pointed out, are busting their butts programming, fixturing and setting up their machines constantly in a never ending process to evolve. It's work, and it takes time.

Rob Frink has posted some videos of his machining centers making various parts for the grinders he manufacturers. They are really interesting. His machines zip through the aluminum like magic, making huge cuts really fast.
Speed is what people think of when they hear "CNC". If only knives were made from Aluminum!!!

If I posted a video of cutting a Havoc blade on my CNC, you would die of boredom <G>. It takes about 25 minutes to machine one side of the blade, and the process completely kills a carbide end mill.

After 5 years of integrating CNC work into my knifemaking, I can tell you that customers are really starting to appreciate what it can do for a knife-Not only from the standpoint of quality, but aesthetically as well.
 
When I choose to buy a custom knife, it's because I have chosen a maker who's work that I really like. It is usaully someone who's work I have watched for awhile, and therefore trust. I trust that however the maker chooses to make the knife. It is fairly simple for me. I think CNC allows a maker to make more precise fittings for their knives.
 
Fair enough I should have said:

Firstly:

I don't buy a knife based on the definitition of how it's made, I don't care how it's made as long as it has the qualities I want. Quality and price are the only factors.

Secondly:

"handmade" doesn't have a definition, it never will. Handmade doesn't automatically mean anything good or bad, so it's useless in the selection of a knife. It can contribute to the quality of a knife, but then I revert back to the paragraph above.

Note one can just as easily substite CNC, forged, whatever to describe how somethign is made, But utlimately it's the quality that makes you decide to buy it or not.
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
Keith, I think CNC and forging are going together more than you might realize... I know of several forgers who use CNC on a regular basis. Bailey Bradshaw has posted on this forum about his use of CNC machinery in his own shop.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming (and Bailey will correct me if I'm wrong) that his use of CNC would be more in the making of parts for his folders. I am not sure what great benefit would be derived from its use in the making of, say, a forged damascus integral.

Since forged fixed blades are my bag, the CNC question is not prominent. But no, it wouldn't bother me in the least.

Roger
 
DaveH said:
Fair enough I should have said:

Firstly:

I don't buy a knife based on the definitition of how it's made, I don't care how it's made as long as it has the qualities I want. Quality and price are the only factors.
.
Click to expand...

We definitely see things differently. Not that there's anything wrong with that. A knife that is of very high quality but made by an entirely automated process would hold no appeal for me whatsoever. I do value craftsmanship - the "man" in the middle of that word referencing human skill as opposed to robotic perfection.

Roger
 
DaveH said:
Note one can just as easily substite CNC, forged, whatever to describe how somethign is made, But utlimately it's the quality that makes you decide to buy it or not.
Click to expand...

I tend to purchase mostly commisioned pieces. I am not purchasing based on the quality of the knife, because it has not been made yet. I am purchasing based on the quality and reputation of the maker and my assessment of the makers ability to produce what I am looking for. However, when I handle knives I agree that it is the quality that impresses me, not how the knife was made.

The way the knife is made is not a critical determining factor in my purchasing decision. This was not always the case, but as I have become more educated, the prejudices I had developed due to faulty understanding have fallen by the wayside.

When I look at a knife made by RJ Martin, I don't think to myself, "If only that knife had not been made with the help of CNC, I would really like it.", I just go slack jawed.
 
OK, I will chime in. I've been useing CNC in my shop since 1998. It has become an integral part of my approach to design and execution of my work. In effect, I design the parts of my knives in order to maximize precision and repeatability, even if I am only mkaing one or two of a particular pattern. I recently added a CNC mill to my shop, after debating over a pantograph, manual mill with DRO, and a small CNC mill. I opted for a medium sized mill with far greater capability than any machine in it's price range, or of the machines fore mentioned. I make my living at knifemaking, and if there is a mcahine I can afford that will provide me the capability to make a better product faster, it's a no brainer to me. The final product is what is imprtant.

Not to be crass, but like it or not, CNC is not only here to stay, but as it becomes more affordable, will become standard equipment for many, many makers. Implemented correctly, it improves a maker rather than making up for inadequated skills. It is another skill unto itself. Very few parts I make with CNC don't require some hand work to fit properly. The trick is doing the exact same hand work on each piece.

I have quoted Ivo Fabbri before, and will again in closing.... " Use only perfect parts, either made by hand, CNC machine or a combination of both. The goal is to make the very best gun Humanly possible, by whatever means necessary" ( Fabbri shotguns are considered by many as the very best of the best.....they were one of the first gun makers to employ CNC technology)
 
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