CNC.......What do you think?

I have been both a collector and a user.

Truth is I have never cared about how a knife is made as long as the knifemaker backs up the entire product. If he claims it as his and tells me that he knows what he's giving me that is all that matters. How he got there is not so relevant to me unless he had the knife completely farmed out to another shop who made i for him, then that is just taking someone elses work and calling it your own.

If the knife is CNC'd, and sent out to Heat treat, I have no problem with that. As long as the final product is top quality.

The bigger question here is at what point do you define a custom knife. It seems to me that a custom knife is one in which the knife maker is directly involved in the making of the entire knife.

this is what I look into:
1. Purchase steel and verify that it is what it is claimed to be, or if from a true american company like CPM, their paper is worth the truth.
2. Grind the knife shape out, by hand or by machine in-house by maker not an apprentice.
3. Finish to final grind, either by maker not an apprentice.
4. Heat treat in-house or personally witness heat treat.
5. Finish knife and edge in-house by maker not an apprentice
6. install handles in house by maker not an apprentice.

the reason why I bolded number 4 is that the Heat treat is probably the single most important step in knife and steel performance. To overlook this step and take it for granted means to put out an inferior product.
 
And, as Anthony mentioned, this comes up perennially. Each iteration gets less and less controversial.

I like Rick's Hinderer's association to this technology likened to the internet. Inescapable. Use it wisely and it will pay rewards. The last holdout of a custom knife, by the definitions offered above, may simply be honesty and full disclosure. Delivered direct from the maker. (That could be the nebulous 'soul' in a custom knife. ;))

All the processing aspects suggested above, are rules that have been bent by many successful makers, and all of them will argue that their work is a custom or handmade. It IS semantics, I agree.

I like repeatability in parts, and, even designs. CNC offers this. Others like some creative inconsistency, from handtools and penciled designs. So do I. There will be room for both. Hopefully always.

I own a number of knives by Hill Pearce, Tai Goo, Robbin Hudson, David Broadwell, Daniel Winkler, etc. ALL of them are unique and incredibly 'handmade'.

I also own and REALLY admire the clean, sterile, and functional aspect that complex CNC machining can offer from makers like: Larry Davidson, Darrell Ralph, Gavin Hawk, Kevin Wilkins, and James Brothers.

I believe that the amount of mental smarts necessary to program AND produce CNC parts is such an advanced skill, that it precludes any inhibitions, based upon creative or production prejudices.

As always, just let us know. Our wallets will be the judge.

Coop
 
I have know problem with knifemakers using a helper or a CNC machine as long as they are honest about it. If I buy a knife from a knifemaker who uses CNC I would want one from a maker who is one of the best CNC makers around.
As long as he has great skill I don't care if he uses a hammer ,grinder ,CNC or
some super lazer. I am one of those people who thinks knives and swords have a soul and something of their makers. RJ's knives have something personal that come through CNC or not. A personality that is apparent whether or not you know who the maker is it seems familiar.
 
SharpByCoop said:
And, as Anthony mentioned, this comes up perennially. Each iteration gets less and less controversial.

I like Rick's Hinderer's association to this technology likened to the internet. Inescapable. Use it wisely and it will pay rewards. The last holdout of a custom knife, by the definitions offered above, may simply be honesty and full disclosure. Delivered direct from the maker. (That could be the nebulous 'soul' in a custom knife. ;))

All the processing aspects suggested above, are rules that have been bent by many successful makers, and all of them will argue that their work is a custom or handmade. It IS semantics, I agree.
Coop
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1. Coop(and Anthony), I have been roosting here for three years, and had only personally read 1 or 2 posts on the subject. It had certainly occurred to me that there were more, but I thought it was a complimentary post to the one a few pages back about "handmades", "customs"....

2. As my own personal attitude has only changed in the last 2 years, I was interested to see what the rest of you had to say. Doing a search using "CNC" as the search term would have been sure to produce MANY posts, that would have taken days to read. Let's bring it to the top, I say.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Though this subject has been discussed on a few occasions, it is good to revisit a topic from time to time. Perspectives change, and new members with new perspectives join the forum every day.
 
I've been hanging around "knives special interest areas" since back when rec.knives was the only game in town. Back then in the early 90s hearing anything about Makers using CNC machines was pretty much unheard of.

Does anyone remember which Maker was the first to actually purchase CNC machines? I really can't recall. I remember whn I started having fixed blades rough cut on water jet and laser machines from my drawings I would get some flak sometimes about that.

These days, I believe the majority of Makers who make knives on a full-time, job-type, this is how I make a living basis either own and operate CNC machines of some type or out source parts to someone who does. Particularly in the tactical / user folding knives market, CNC machines have become very prevelant and IMO a practical necessity if you want to survive.

I've already starting getting those "Dear John" letters from my tooling suppliers... "you have undoubtedly noticed the continued rising costs of raw materials and energy in 2006... for these reasons we must also raise our prices across the board... find enclosed our new pricelist for 2007..."

Ba-dah-bing- ba-dah-boom.
 
Yes and no Anthony. Cheaper, and easier because of less grinding, a big yes. Although there are few forgers that don't finish grind. They are getting better and better at it. I've been at this long enough to remember when a forged knife could be spotted by it's crude grind, fit, and finish. This is largely a thing of the past. Distal taper? I hear this one all the time.forged knives have a distal taper. Stock removal doesn't. Un truth, neither have an exclusive on a distal taper. All of the Lovess Big Bears bears have a distal taper to the spine. As do mine. This is one of the big areas that the copiers miss. Differential heat treat.? this isn't done in the forging process, but rather in the heat treat, and draw. This can be done on carbon steels by Forger, or stock removal maker. It is all in the Heat treat. Some carbon steels may benefit from this. But in most cases, it sounds good, but is at cross purposes of what a knife is intended to do. It does look great on a killer hammon. But I don't make knives to simply look good. They have to perform. Both methods can perform. There are reasons for both. Keep in mind, when treated to the extent that a Test knife is for the ABS, It is just that. A test of ability to heat treat. The knife itself in the real world would be a vastly inferior knife. It isn't intended to function as a real working tool. It is just a test. pure and simple. Many Hi Speed steels do not lend them selves to differential treat ment. But out perform it. As to heat treating in house, or witnessing same, this would be next to impossible with some of the high tech steels out there. They can produce a markedly superior knife, but the heat treat on some of them is very complicated. Way beyond the small shop. Remember that smiths are using simple steels. It is a very different world. Rember when we could all tune our cars a few decades ago by changing the spark plugs, and setting the timing? Simple. I don't want me or joe blow under the hood of a new BMW trying to figure out what that gadget is for. The times are a changing my friends. Now to set the record stright. I Love knives. Stock removal, Forged. Hell, knapped flint! so this isn't a put down of anyone. Just my take on the buisness.
 
You got that right! But unlike Kevin. I know a lot of full time makers, and very, very few that have cnc equipment. may be one in fifty. If that many. However my buddy Kit uses them to great advantage.
 
Mike,

Not to be challenging or inflamatory, what do you mean by saying a test knife is inferior in the real world, and isn't intended to function as a working tool?
 
STeven,

I forgot to add the word: GREAT topical post. You are spot-on.

Coop
 
Kohai999 said:
1. Coop(and Anthony), I have been roosting here for three years, and had only personally read 1 or 2 posts on the subject. It had certainly occurred to me that there were more, but I thought it was a complimentary post to the one a few pages back about "handmades", "customs"....

2. As my own personal attitude has only changed in the last 2 years, I was interested to see what the rest of you had to say. Doing a search using "CNC" as the search term would have been sure to produce MANY posts, that would have taken days to read. Let's bring it to the top, I say.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Keith Montgomery said:
Though this subject has been discussed on a few occasions, it is good to revisit a topic from time to time. Perspectives change, and new members with new perspectives join the forum every day.
Click to expand...


I find this thread particularly helpful since it still seems to be a question I frequently have to answer to non-knife nuts and the like.
What defines a custom knife from a handmade or semi-custom? Hopefully this thread will provide some clearer insight. It's a good read regardless.
 
Three points:

1) This thread is indeed valuable as a demonstration of how perceptions of the use of CNC machines in the manufacture of custom knives has changed. There is no doubt - based on my recollection of some earlier threads - that it is more accepted today than in the past. I credit the efforts of makers like R.J. and others for their efforts to educate and inform. And I also credit the increasingly sophisticated and information-hungry knife buyer.

2) 10 bonus points to Lombardo for proper use of the term "panacea".

3) Going forward, 10 bonus points to Lovett for every post that does not contain the word "Loveless". :p ;)

Roger
 
Joss,

Thanks for the link. I agree with Kevin on many of his statments. I too am tired of seeing test blades with a 70+ degree set from the bend test.

Anthony,

I totally agree with your concern over replaceable parts. It is important to not only be able to make a great folder, but also to be able to service it in the event it requires new parts.
 
Roger: I would go as high as 1000 points on item 3. <G>
Anthony: You managed to say what I wanted to say (and left out, because I couldn't get the words right) about the benefits of interchangeable parts. Thanks.

It is important for makers, users and collectors to ponder these questions occasionally. Not necessarily the question of "What constitutes Handmade?", but, the perhaps the larger question of "How do I feel about the methods used to make this?"
It is through our own deliberation and discussion with out peers that we ultimately arrive at conclusions about what we care about, and decide what is important to us.
To consider forged knives versus CNC'd knives means we have to look at how the world has changed over time, and perhaps consider whether we like the direction it is taking. There has always been an aspect of technology that seems to dehumanize whatever activity it is applied to. The story of John Henry comes to mind. Perhaps this is what some of us struggle with, and, wisely so, IMHO.
But, I think it's a pretty fair statement that Leonardo DaVinci wouldn't have scoffed at better paints, brushes or paper-Or any of the "tools" hs used in his creative process, because they would have helped his efforts.
Part of technology is that it is designed to reduce human effort, and errors that humans are prone to make. And, there is the "better, faster, cheaper" component. Again, depending on your perspective, this may or may not be a good thing.
I know that if I forged, I would want a power hammer.
When I need to make a slot, I like a milling machine, not a hand drill and some files.
When I want to cryo a blade, I want a Dewars flask full of LN2, not a snowbank.
You get the point, I'm sure.

As long as we remain open to new possibilities (because they are inevitable), and respect the old ways (because they were new, once), there are no wrong answers to the questions.
 
rj martin said:
As long as we remain open to new possibilities (because they are inevitable), and respect the old ways (because they were new, once), there are no wrong answers to the questions.
Click to expand...

There are no wrong answers. It is up to the individual that is wanting to purchase a knife to decide what is important to him/her. A couple of years ago I did not consider CNC machines to be acceptable tools to use in making custom knives. That is no longer the case.
 
Excellent points, Randy. You made very clear, some foggy notions. Thanks for such perspective.

Boy, I just spent about an hour poring over the words written in Kevin Cashen's site. Thanks for the link, Joss. VERY revealing info.

Coop
 
Very well put RJ! and thank you Bailey and Coop for taking a look at Kevin's site. I Think it puts it better than I ever could. NCC =Custom? Rarely. We for get that Custom means. Quite litteraly any, made to order, designed for that customer. Either by us, the customer, or a third party. Yes a custom knife can be made by CNC. But is isn't done very often. by the same token, I have no CNC, But I don't consider myself to be a custom maker. If I make numerous knives to the same pattern. I can not think of them as custom. A custom is a unique piece. Either a one of a kind, or a one shot set. They are rather HAND MADE. Is CNC hand made. Well, not the CNC part. Is this important? I don't know. It isn't to me. But I'm not the collector, buyer, or dealer. Is it mid tech? Being an old fogie, I don't even know what midtech means. Its a newer term that I'm not familiar with. Bench made? Now to me, this fits perfectly. I hate to loose my 10 points, but Bob and I have discussed this very topic more than once. He does not consider Loveless Knives to be custom. He simply says that they are hand made. (and many of us consider a Loveless Knife to be the pinnacle of Customs). And that is good enough for me. (Man, and I wanted to spend all those points in the same place! Hee! Mike
 
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