CNC.......What do you think?

Interesting thread! We must evolve, or be left behind. It is this way in any endeavor. Keith, I have great respect for you. But we disagree from time to time. This is a good thing. If we all liked the same thing, this would be one boring forum. This isn't a put down, I'm just not understanding what you mean About Bob Loveless's way of doing things. Perhaps you are talking about the fact that he doesn't forge. As you prefer forged knives, this world make perfect sense. There are many myths about Bob Loveless Knives. Just is case anyone here thinks other wise, let me set the record straight. Many have ask why we don't forge our knives. Bob Started by forging, as did I. We prefer modern technology in our steels. This is what we like. I like a well forged blade, but in Damascus only. I can't see the point in forging normal carbon steel. It has already gotten all thebenefit of forging when reduction was done at the foundry. The only advantage that I can see is being able to find, or purchase round, and odd shaped stock. this is always much cheaper, and much less waste. We don't forge because we prefer it the way we do it. many think that Loveless some how mass produces Loveless Knives. There are no automatic grinders, Shapers, double disk grinders, CNC equipment, or any other hi-tec machinery in Bob's shop. Hell, He doesn't even have a DRO for his little mill. You can't even talk the man into using a digital caliper. Each knife is hand cut (bandsaw),profiled, and ground on the Burr-King grinder, hand fitted for the guard, and handle one at a time. No handle or even sheath will fit another knife. One of a kind, but alike is what we try for. Bob once told me that when a fellow wants to purchase a knife for his grand kid, he expects it to be at least resembling the one he has used, and loved for all these years. and has a right to have a good idea of what he is getting. Rember. Loveless makes tough using knives. and what he makes has stood the test of time. In spades. Also what Bailey said. As for cnc'd forged knives, Keith, it isn't used for the forging. It's for what comes after. After forgeing, still, all you have is a roughly shaped piece of steel. The knife still has to be ground, just like any other knife. The work is just beginning! Rember. Forging is the beginning. (Whether role forged, hammer forged, or press forged.) It isn't the ending. When you get down to it. All knives are forged in one way or another. Mike
 
Mike, my comment about Bob was in regards to my point about having a preference for knives that have had everything except for the piddly stuff done by the maker that puts his/her name on the blade. That is not the way Loveless knives are made, but it doesn't matter to me at all. If I could afford one, I would have a Loveless knife in my collection tomorrow. I wouldn't care one little bit that it wasn't forged either.

CNC machines are highly sophisticated tools that are going to become more and more prevalent in knifemaking. It's a fact that collectors are going to have to come to terms with. There will likely always be makers that do everything without the use of CNC machines, but they will become fewer and fewer.
 
Your right Keith. Bob has become a little long in the tooth. It really irks him not to be able to do many things that he use to. We will all get to that point if we are lucky. It's a wish at cross purposes. We all want to live a long life. But we don't want to loose our stamina, and abilities. It's a shame. But thats life. Man! I wish I could afford a few myself. I'm going out there in Feb. May be I can make it happen. CNC? It is a ongoing thing. Many more are accepting it every day. Anything wrong with it? I don't know. I see people accepting it now that would not in the past. Is it because they now understand it, or have sub-consciously just gotten use to the idea. Kinda like we have gotten use to our throw away society. Use to be a custom, or hand made was just that. Not so much any more. There is getting to be very little difference in the techniques used by many makers than from the specialty manufacturing companies. Just a few years ago we would have been shocked. Now it is common place. What I don't get is the prices staying the same in most cases. We have makers that use automatic grinders, cnc, laser, water jet, a dozen or more workers, and still call themselves custom makers. But they by and large don't want this info out there. You would be shocked at who some of the names are. One that was a famous maker, and known forger is among these. He is now deceased, and was a great guy. But his knives weren't custom or even hand made by him to the largest extent. He also had several locations. One for the public to see. One for his workers, and a machine shop. But he was very successful. I think this is the driving force. You can only make so many knives your self. The average collector or user has no Idea how much time and effort it takes to make a single hand made knife. In a previous thread, One fellow stated that it was probably OK to copy or use some one Else's design, if he was only a hobbyist. As a hobbyist would only make probably around 100 knives a year. Well let me tell you guys. I'm very full time, and there is no way in heck that I can make 100 knives a year I'm lucky to make 50- 80 knives, going full on. One maker claims to make several thousand a year. Is this hand made. I don't know. I'm not sure that in todays market I even know what it means any more. Or if it means anything at all. At one time if a maker was very successful, and demand Far out striped shop ability, he would then go semi commercial. Starting with workers, and branching out. Success us to be something to be proud of. Look at Pete Gerber. Bo Randall, A. Buck. Just to name a few. Now it is hidden. You can get blasted for just noticing it. Much less saying that it exist. Not naming anyone here. But it is way more prevalent than you would think. CNC? Dozen or more workers. Where is the line. Is there a line. Does it matter. If not. Why do we collect. or make. What is the point? I know what it is for me. When I go to bed at night, I may not be wealthy. But I can sleep well. I know I have represented myself and my craft with honesty, and integrity. On a side note. Imagine just how far Bob Loveless could have gone. Just how wealthy he could have become. If he had go the way of Buck and Gerber. Designing and Manufacturing, rather than making knives one at a time, and in many cases giving his designs away. As the most prolific cutlery designer in modern history. Just where would he be today. He drew the line many years ago. And it is one I will follow. Mike
 
I think one driving force of todays trend away from well marked knifes with excellent fit and finish, and what is now acceptable is the strong tactical market. At one time, we simply bead blasted a fighter, and we had a tactical. Fit and finis was still there. Many makers wouldn't have a clue as how to put a high degree of finish on a knife. I see knives with 220 grit finish grinds. ( not really fine enough to even send out to heat treat with out the chance of causing stress risers). Stone wash. any manner of tumbled finishes. Painted. power coat. You name it. No skill required what so ever. Gaps between bolsters large enough to throw a bull through. Scales that don't match the liner. The list goes on and on. These things world never have been accepted just a few years ago. The buyers now don't even notice. The throw away society again. People are getting to the point that they use the word quality as an after thought. Not knowing what it means. A very large percentage of these knives are to the point of being production line pieces. Water jet, or laser cut, stack drilled, batch ground, jig's and fixtures for the parts, and the knives literally screwed to gather. They aren't custom, nor are they hand made. They are simply production pieces on smaller scale than a full on manufacturer. I know several that use CNC equipment for the very thing the collectors worry about. They turn out thousands of parts. Some being sold under they're name. Some go to other makers. Some go to the commercial market. Some makers are even having commercial shops make they're parts for them. Even the blade. and these are big name makers who's work runs into the thousand dollar plus range. Some several thousand dollars. For a non hand made, but well designed, for all intents and purposes. Kit Knife. Just a kit made for that maker. So there again. Where is the limit. Any answers out there?
 
Very good points R.J. – as always!

Bailey, thanks for speaking directly, I agree with you 100%. Which milling machine did you get! :-)

Keith, I din't mean that CNC machines control forging, rather that many heat-and-beaters also make use of CNC machines during the process of making their knives. Sorry for not being clearer about that.

Mike, the "limit" as you put it is honesty. If these Makers you refer to but do not name are deceiving their customers regarding how they make their knives, then that's dishonest to put it mildly. If they are up front about how they make their knives and the buyers are good with these methods, then fine.
 
Imagine just how far Bob Loveless could have gone. Just how wealthy he could have become. If he had go the way of Buck and Gerber. Designing and Manufacturing, rather than making knives one at a time, and in many cases giving his designs away. As the most prolific cutlery designer in modern history. Just where would he be today. He drew the line many years ago.
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Mike, forgot to mention this: are you saying in your post above that all the Loveless designs produced over the years using his name by Gerber, Schrade, Lone Wolf... I forget how many, were all done for free?? That Mr. Loveless wasn't paid anything? That he gave them permission to use his name and his designs for free? I really find that hard to believe.

Or have I misunderstood what you were saying?

It seems to me Loveless has been a pioneer in marketing and licensing his name and designs to industry for series production. He has also been using workers in his shop to help make his knives for decades, many of whom have gone on to become well known Makers in their own right.
 
You are correct Kevin. Bob has gotten paid by some. And not by others. It is still going on today. Yes he has had helpers. In a post last week, it was stated that most collectors don't know that Bob Loveless has had helpers, in the past or the present. Hard to believe! It has also been stated that if it got out, it might hurt collect-ability. I don't see how any serious collector could not know. It is more likely they just aren't thinking, or choose not to. Is there a single collector who doesn't know who SR Johnson is, or where he got his style of clean functional knife making. I doubt it seriously. If they don't, they aren't serious, or knowledgeable collectors. Jim has been with Bob for nearly 25 years. Not exactly easy to miss. There are no helpers, but rather one helper. Far cry from a work crew,and- or a bank of cnc's , automatic grinders and profilers. If I had the room in the shop, I sure as heck would have an apprentice. I need one badly. If not for the wife making the sheaths, I would be in big trouble.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Mike, my comment about Bob was in regards to my point about having a preference for knives that have had everything except for the piddly stuff done by the maker that puts his/her name on the blade.
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I didn't see any such comment in this thread - am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time.

Roger
 
Mike: I read your post, and what I hear is you denegrating the use of custom makers using in-house CNC as producing "kit knives". Of the few makers I know who have CNC machines, most have only 1 or 2 of any given type. A CNC mill and perhaps a CNC lathe, for example. And, unlike the factories, most are small machines. I have just 1 CNC in my shop, and it will produce frames for just 12 folders in a LONG day of machining, and blades for those 12 folders will take another 2 days of machining. I am right there, during that time, operating the machine. Then, there is the machine time to make the clips, thumb studs and handle scales-Another day of machining. From that point, each knife will require another 6-8 hours of "OLD SCHOOL" hand labor to yield a completed knife. There are over 40 hand operations before I get to the "screw turning" part. Which is why I am constantly behind in my deliveries! But, when I am done, I have 12 knives with interchangeable parts.

No one works in my shop but me. I consider that a more "honest" way of making knives than having an assistant making "my" knives right alongside me. But, that is only my opinion, and in the big scheme of things, means exactly nothing.
I understand your alliegance to Bob loveless, and, personally I don't care how he gets his knives made. That is his decision. I have met Bob, talked with Bob and I both like and respect him.

Bailey: Great post-
 
Kohai999 said:
1. Would knowing that a knife was made using CNC equipment cause you to pass on it?

Depends. If the knife is going to be used for a particular purpose in which the use of CNC or simular equipment would enhance the performance for this purpose, then I would be OK with it.
However, as I collect sole authorship forged knives, I would not buy a piece for my collection where this type of equipment was used.

2. How many of a particular model being crafted would cause you to pause, considering the knife more of a "studio model" a la William Henry, than a "handmade" or "handcrafted" knife?

I carry a William Henry however as above, for my collection I prefer handmade one of ones.
As for "particular model" consider J Fisk makes many of his Sendero model, however I consider each one unique as handle material, damascus pattern and such will never be exactly duplicated and each one is hand made (by hand utilizing simplistic traditional equipment).

3. How much of the actual work(maybe percentage wise) done on the knife including programming by maker is necessary for you to consider the knife as being "made" by the person who's name appears on the knife.

All, except work done by an apprentice. I have stated in previous threads what processes I feel should be done by the apprentice and which should not.
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Only my opinion of course.
 
I felt I should add alittle to this thread as a maker who utilizes cnc machine tools in the construction of my knives...in fact I own more cnc machine tools than any other maker (I know its a sickness :)) I currently have 1 cnc knee mill, 1 cnc machining center,and 3 cnc lathes. but givin that you know what the most important machine in my shop is...a Bader III belt grinder..what I use to hand grind my blades...without it not one knife would be able to leave my shop...and nlike RJ said..pumping out a boatload of knives haha yea right..as far behind as I am...
Mike, I know where your coming from as I used to think the same way you do...
You see I have been making knives for 20 years and most of that time I was a forger,making high end art knives...and I used to bitch about these guys cheating with their cnc machines..(yes, cnc has been around a LONG time)...

Here's my take on the use of cnc and for that matter cad/cam and other high technology uses in custom knives and the industry in general..

cnc machine tools do not have a "knife" button where you just put steel in push the button and go watch Opra while your knives are being made...it takes many years of self teaching to even learn how to program the control to get it to do what you want...that is alot of time invested..then there is the cost...I bought my machines new...the machining center alone was $60000.00...when makers come to me for advice on making the step to using cnc..I tell them you better like peanut butter and jelly. and I'm here to tell you that you can live on it!@ ;) am I rich? haha hell no..I had more money and time when I was making art knives than I do now...now all my profit goes to the bank haha...on that note I was wondering what you mean about makers using a "automatic grinder"..do you mean cnc blade grinder like the Berger grinder?..if so at a price of $230000.00 I dont think to many custom makers will go that far!..
Sometimes I even asked myself if it was worth it to get these machines..my responce to that was a overwhelming yes!..Technology has opened the door to so many ideas that would have been if not very hard downright impossible without it.and like RJ stated it has enabled me to make even higher quality knives at a even more affordable price.

For you knife enthusiasts what has the use of cnc tools and technology given you?..again I remember the days at shows when you didnt have near the variety of knives as you do now...
because of the "outside to box" thinking that cad designing has given the maker you have innovations in cutlery that you wouldnt have before or if so would take longer to achieve...I never would have been able to add the textureing that I use on my folders. I would not have been able to design and then make the Gerber Hinderer Rescue knife that has already been a part of many rescues..Larry Davidson would not have been able to come up with the very cool 3-d work that he does..You wouldnt be able to look at the RJ Martin designed knife that now Kershaw is doing and say wow that grind is awsome! how did they do that?!..which also effects you Mike,because that unkown guy who walked past the counter at xyz retail store and stopped dead in his tracks because he saw the RJ knife and marveled at it..that guy became a collecter of custom knives, joined a forum to learn more about knives and THEN seen that there are guys that forge their knives and fell in love with your knives and became your best customer.....thank RJ's cnc mill for that....
As for the standard of quality?..what is that standard?...is it that every knife should be forged,or that every knife should have a 2000 grit hand rubbed blade?...No it is how well the knife is made,whether it can stand up to being used as a knife. I know what you mean about the fit and finish in the old days, and what was deamed acceptable in a handmade knife...I used to say holy cow people would buy that crap for how much!?..the blade isnt even finished!..but that was because I was putting what "MY" standard was in a knife "I" would buy. Other people have different reasons for plopping down their hard earned cash..whether I agree with their decision or not is not up to me. I am just happy that they are happy to be buying custom knives,because someday they may be MY customer. I know what I like in a knife...and why would ANYBODY pay hundreds of dollars for a Beanybaby!!:D

CNC technology is definitly here to stay in custom knives. as the price of these machine tools come down more makers will choose to step forward. This will be a big benefit to knife enthusiasts as more innovations will emerge in knives more choices for the buyer. Makers will spend more time in the shop because they have to pay for them! :D I have spent a enormous amount of money on my business of making knives (and kubatons:D ) because I believe in this business,dedicated to it and am having a blast making cool toys for you guys!..The same as every other maker who uses cnc technology in his business. They are dedicated to making knives and using high tech tools to further the art of the edged tool. Really the most to benifit from this is the buyer!

I also know what you mean about those who want to hid etheir use of cnc..why I dont know....hell when I got my first machining center I was so proud I told everybody haha....but I also know of makers who never told anybody..whatever their reason I dont know nor do I care..i know I tell everybody and thats good enough for me...soon I am going to have my shop tour in pictures finished so everyone will be able to SEE how I make my knives using the machines I have...oh and I make EVERY part of my knives in my shop..even down to those silly parts like screws and such.

Speaking of technology.....what about the use of the internet in advertising your finished knife?....being a oldtimer in the business I remember we had to either go to a expensive knife show or get a expensive ad space in a magazine then wait a few months to sell the knife...now you can have your finished knife in front of the buying public in seconds,with little or no cost! I used to bitch and moan about these "young pups" didnt have to go through what we old timers did :D ..then I asked myself would I have used the internet if it was around when I first started..hell yea I would...so I told myself to stop bitching about those young makers,their smart and using tools given to them....when I stopped worrying about what everyone else was doing it also lowered my bloodpreasure :D

So after all this,(my fingers are sore)...in a nutshell cnc is merely a tool.be honest in your dealings,and let the customer decide.if they decide they like forged one of's better than my knives ..FANTASTIC! they are knife enthusiasts and I'm a knife maker!...mabey they'll bring their fiend into the knifeworld and he likes tacticals:D

RJ, we need to get working on these knives!!!

Rick Hinderer
 
Rick: Yes, working on those knives...I just spent 4 hours finishing out a knife that I had CNC'd the blade and guard on. If only that CNC would clean up those soldered guards and do all that hand rubbed satin finishing work. :rolleyes:

I too started as an "old school" maker. Loveless style all the way, and man, I could mirror finish a blade, IMHO of course. Nothing wrong with any of that, either-It takes plenty of skill to make a knife that way. I just found that in transitioning to folders, I needed a more repeatable process, because I didn't want to spend half my time working on maintaining customers knives that needed tweaking.

Rick, if you get overloaded, just crate up a machine and send it here. I'll put it to good use...........:D
 
RJ. and Rick, I agree with our a Big!!100 percent! I lived in Huntsville Alabama for a number of years. It is of course where the space shuttles were made. l I bought and sole both new and use d machine tools. Mills, lathes. Cnc. Edm. Water jet, you name it. and this was over 25 years ago. (They still haven't heard of these technologies here. When talking about them, people look at me like I'm from another planet. Even metal workers.It's almost like I live in the third world. Only they are advancing at a rapid pace. Not here. I get a real charge out of CNC.And if i could afford one, and was intelligent enough o program one, you can bet your sweet bippy that I would be first in line down at the CNC Store,. No fellow makers, what I'm referring to is makers, or at least posers having all their parts MANUFACTURED out of shop, by all these tech's, doing none of it is house, or very, very little of it, and then putting they're name on what was basically a kit, ready to assemble when it arrived at their door. Believe me. It is happening. Auto Grinders Ever hear of nicoson, and or double disk grinders? They are out there too. Mike
 
Hee, Hee. Your going to love this one. Just for grins I went out to the shop to have a smoke and while there pulled out the calculator. I Put in the hours stated above. Both what was spent on the CNC . and the hand fitting. I used what I would think would be a loose average price for the knives. Your not going to believe this one, but it came to within 2 or 3 dollars of what I usually average in the shop. The only difference is that I don't have the BIG BANK NOTE!!! Haaa!!! Same Same guys. About the being at a CNC all day being more honest than having a helper standing next to you all day. I See no difference. Do you not have to program the machine? Do you not have to program the apprentice? The machine is going to get it right much more often! By the same token, I see no difference in having your steel and other supplies delivered to a machine shop, to be machined and finished, than having it sent to some other maker, and having the knives made and then putting your name on them. Both just as dishonest. By the way RJ. Killer Knives you have there. That blade texturing would be impossible by any other means that I know of. Off the Hook! And Rick, I miss your Art Knives. Mike
 
My 2 cts.......I will always believe that new technology has its place.

Now if a CNC machine can be programed to grind bevels and is used in that manner then it is not a custom, handmade knife.

Anything else is time savings, or precision minded in my belief. ;)

Bj.
 
CNC grinding machines can be programmed to grind blades... that's what they're designed to do. The two industry leaders for this type of machinery (that I am aware of) are Berger and Siepmann, both of whom make make machines costing from high five figures and up. These machines are beyond the reach of smaller shops. Automated grinding machines are usually not practical for runs of less than several 100 blades as the set up is rather complicated.

CNC milling machines can be programmed to mill blades depending of the cutters used, the number of axis the machine can handle, the software used, and a number of other factors. A number of guys mill their blades either completely or partially. A number of guys also use analog milling machines to mill their blades.

I dont see the point in saying it's OK to buy and use the CNC machine for some operations but not for others.

Personally, I have never made a "handmade" knife... I have always used tools. hahaha :-)
 
RJ is using CNC for some of his blades, but not because he cannot grind a killer blade. He is using modern tech. for the uniqueness of the finished product. I know of no way that the pattern he is getting could be achieved. My hat is off to him. Mike
 
Kohai999 said:
1. Would knowing that a knife was made using CNC equipment cause you to pass on it?

2. How many of a particular model being crafted would cause you to pause, considering the knife more of a "studio model" a la William Henry, than a "handmade" or "handcrafted" knife?

3. How much of the actual work(maybe percentage wise) done on the knife including programming by maker is necessary for you to consider the knife as being "made" by the person who's name appears on the knife.
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- I have no problem buying a knife made using CNC. Great custom gunsmiths use it for better accuracy and tolerances so why shouldn't custom knivemakers do the same? I can't say enough good things about Kevin Wilkins and RJ Martin's work, to mention only two who use it.
- If I think the quality/value of a knife is high and I'm likely to use or carry it, I'm not too concerned about the number being produced. For collectibility, the number made makes more of a difference to me but I can't come up with a specific number.
- I think the majority of the knife should be made by the "maker" for it to be legitimately considered his/her work. I have no problem with mid-techs and related production techniques as long as I know up front.
 
I prefer custom folding knives, especially tactical ones to have CNC'd components so when wear occurs or parts need to be replaced (Which will happen if you actually use a folder hard) it can be done with a minimum of muss and fuss. I find folders made with CNC technology to have better precision in general, which is paramount when making folders.

The only advantage that I can see is being able to find, or purchase round, and odd shaped stock. this is always much cheaper, and much less waste.
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Most forgers would probably say that the ability to differentially temper and add distal taper and reduce much of the grinding during the forging process would be greater advantages.

At any rate, this is a great discussion that comes up perennially and I have come to the conclusion that I am a bit less concerned about the route taken to make a knife and more concerned with the final product. I also still see many CNC'd knives with poor fit and finish, so it certainly isn't a panacea.

If Loveless used CNC blanks, scales, and guards but the finish product still had the look,finish, and FEEL of a Loveless, I don't think anyone would care.
 
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