Coarse edge = Micro serrations yes or no

[Ankerson]

Sounds to me like you're implying the steel composition might bear more heavily on things like cutting efficiency and edge retention than other considerations, like mechanism of cutting, edge angle etc. I have to admit, I haven't been testing for this phenomena (with all other variables controlled).


HH

That is what I am saying and it is huge, really huge.

Different steels will react differently, some steels cut more aggressively than others do.

High Alloy steels will react differently than Low Alloy steels.

Perceived sharpness is what some people think is happening or what is.

Kinda like a toothy edge, you would get some that will say that is really sharp when they feel the edge and that same edge won't even slice paper clean.

Others will feel a Polished edge that is screaming sharp and think it's dull.

Some steels like the High percentage vanadium steels develop that toothy edge one they start to break down, while they won't whittle hair anymore they are still very sharp and will still cut extremely well.

There is a dullness curve and that will change depending on the steel and how it's sharpened.

Some steels are pretty flat, they just keep getting duller at a continuous rate so that's what I mean by flat.

Some steels have more of a dullness curve to them, they will start to dull, then level out for a long time before finally lose their edge completely.

Most people wouldn't see this unless they are testing a lot of steels with strict measurements using the same media, edge angle, finish ect. There has to be a starting point and an ending point and those measurements have to be the same for all blades tested.

One just can't take a knife to work one day and cut some stuff they happen to cut that day and call that a test. One day will be different than the next, there has to be some method used, the variables have to be addressed.

That same blade might work great one day, then the next day it might suck, the following day it might be great again. Just too many variables there to really say. That's not testing, that's guessing or what I call perceived sharpness.

Take that same blade sharpened the same way and run some tests on it removing the variables and one would have a very good idea how it should preform. Take 10 blades and run that same test removing the variables and one could predict how the blades should perform.

But then nothing is written in stone or 100%, that impossible to say as nothing is ever that precise, we are human in the end.

All we can do is play the percentages of what should or could be, throw in the human element along with opinions and bias and anything can happen.

 

[HeavyHanded]

That is what I am saying and it is huge, really huge.

Different steels will react differently, some steels cut more aggressively than others do.

High Alloy steels will react differently than Low Alloy steels.

Perceived sharpness is what some people think is happening or what is.

Kinda like a toothy edge, you would get some that will say that is really sharp when they feel the edge and that same edge won't even slice paper clean.

Others will feel a Polished edge that is screaming sharp and think it's dull.

Some steels like the High percentage vanadium steels develop that toothy edge one they start to break down, while they won't whittle hair anymore they are still very sharp and will still cut extremely well.

There is a dullness curve and that will change depending on the steel and how it's sharpened.

Some steels are pretty flat, they just keep getting duller at a continuous rate so that's what I mean by flat.

Some steels have more of a dullness curve to them, they will start to dull, then level out for a long time before finally lose their edge completely.

Most people wouldn't see this unless they are testing a lot of steels with strict measurements using the same media, edge angle, finish ect. There has to be a starting point and an ending point and those measurements have to be the same for all blades tested.

One just can't take a knife to work one day and cut some stuff they happen to cut that day and call that a test. One day will be different than the next, there has to be some method used, the variables have to be addressed.

That same blade might work great one day, then the next day it might suck, the following day it might be great again. Just too many variables there to really say. That's not testing, that's guessing or what I call perceived sharpness.

Take that same blade sharpened the same way and run some tests on it removing the variables and one would have a very good idea how it should preform. Take 10 blades and run that same test removing the variables and one could predict how the blades should perform.

But then nothing is written in stone or 100%, that impossible to say as nothing is ever that precise, we are human in the end.

All we can do is play the percentages of what should or could be, throw in the human element along with opinions and bias and anything can happen.

Are you saying you've done this kind of rigorous and uniform testing on a large variety of steels, or are you piecing this info together from a variety of sources, some rigorous and some anecdotal? I actually have done a number of tests using several steel types and grinds. While it's no CATRA test, it did reveal some steady trends, the results of which I stand behind, and the methodology of some of these tests (crude as they were) have been described more than once on this forum. I would welcome any testing results and methodology you have acquired on this subject, as I do not have access to the large variety of steels that you do, am and very interested in what you're bringing to the table.

As far as testing in the workplace, the variety of materials that I was cutting at the time were quite consistent over the course of a week, if not day to day. Testing for a given steel/edge preparation was discontinued when the edge would no longer cut 80# uncoated text-weight paper using either a press or a draw cut, I didn't just call it a day at lunch time and pull a new knife out. Still and all, this is somewhat of an unexplored avenue - though I have included different steels in all my tests, I admit to not having access to as large a sample as you are referring to. Might be time to start a new notebook.
HH

 

[Ankerson]

Are you saying you've done this kind of rigorous and uniform testing on a large variety of steels, or are you piecing this info together from a variety of sources, some rigorous and some anecdotal? I actually have done a number of tests using several steel types and grinds. While it's no CATRA test, it did reveal some steady trends, the results of which I stand behind, and the methodology of some of these tests (crude as they were) have been described more than once on this forum. I would welcome any testing results and methodology you have acquired on this subject, as I do not have access to the large variety of steels that you do, am and very interested in what you're bringing to the table.

As far as testing in the workplace, the variety of materials that I was cutting at the time were quite consistent over the course of a week, if not day to day. Testing for a given steel/edge preparation was discontinued when the edge would no longer cut 80# uncoated text-weight paper using either a press or a draw cut, I didn't just call it a day at lunch time and pull a new knife out. Still and all, this is somewhat of an unexplored avenue - though I have included different steels in all my tests, I admit to not having access to as large a sample as you are referring to. Might be time to start a new notebook.
HH

I am saying I have done the testing on a wide range of steels.

I don't post cutting data, but there is a thread in the Testing section that I started on Polished vs non polished edges. That's using the same method I use in my Steel ranking thread, two steels were tested for that thread, ELMAX and M390.

I will say as I posted before that the High Alloy steels do work better with finer edges due to the high percentage of carbides, the higher the percentage of carbides the better they work.

I would recommend that for low alloy steels that a coarse edge is better usually.

Looking at the dullness curves one can see which steels will work better with the finer edges and which ones won't even before cutting.

 

[unit]

I am saying I have done the testing on a wide range of steels.

I don't post cutting data, but there is a thread in the Testing section that I started on Polished vs non polished edges. That's using the same method I use in my Steel ranking thread, two steels were tested for that thread, ELMAX and M390.

Jim, I am learning that there is a WIDE range of finishes that people call micro-serrated.

Similarly, if you were to ask the proponents of micro-serrated edges how they produce them, I think you would get enough different answers to suggest that the methods that people use to get these edges might explain the disparity in findings reported by the various camps (philosophies on edge finishes).

For example, some guys will polish an edge, then go back to a "coarse" stone and put on a microbevel (with that stone) and stop.

Others will use a bench strop to refine an edge formed with 220 (or other fairly coarse grit).

Still others will Power strop the edge above.

Still others will name other processes used to get this toothy, or coarse, or micro-serrated edge.

My point is that while Alloy is a HUGE variable, another biggie is the WAY these edges are put on. A power strop may have more of a burnishing effect than a bench strop, not using any strop at all will yield a lesser aligned edge...there is a lot to chew on here.

Further, how do you even gauge sharpness on a one of these edges? Certainly you can not use the same tests as a polished edge...though some of my recent observations indicates that you CAN to some extent.

The nature of some of these coarse edges will lend themselves to whittling hair, but if you introduce ANY slicing motion, the hair is immediately severed, or it bounces off the blade. This does not necessarily indicate that the edge is not capable of whittling that hair (because it does) but when you move the hair to a different facet edge in the blade, the angle between the cutting edge and the hair changes...and the hair reacts accordingly.

Cutting tissue is a test you have used in the past. This test by its nature may be a bad protocol for testing sharpness on a micro serrated edge because of the high variability of the angles of alignment on the cutting edge. Sort of like your fine edge probably would fail the test also if you failed to align the cutting edge correctly with the TP.

Does this make any sense to you?

make no mistake, I am not debating which type of edge is superior, or what will last longer...I am saying that quite often we have difficulty thinking outside the box in terms of our ideals, and are quick to dismiss an idea that is very different from those ideals.

The way a person perceives sharpness is an easy example of this. Some guys will dismiss a knife or edge REGARDLESS of how well it can perform EVERY task they need for a job, if it fails to shave their arm hair (which is a pretty worthless task for many people).

Where this is going is to point to the possibility that some people may think they have tested out some "coarse", or "micro-serrated", or whatever the kids are calling it, but perhaps they instead tested their idea of what this type of edge is, and dismissed it....and ultimately failed to look into anything else that while it goes by the same name, may actually be something different.

I decided to try some things that go against my paradigms. I am not saying that I am surprised or shocked....but I am exploring some other things that my stubborn nature prevented me from exploring before. I only have some preliminary results at this point, but so far...I am learning a lot!

 

[pwet]

I would recommend that for low alloy steels that a coarse edge is better usually.

hum ...
any chefs and kitchen knives enthusiast who work with high end japanese carbon knives would heartfully disagree. unless you consider plain carbon steel with nothng else than carbon and impurities isn't low alloy past 1% carbon...

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, I am learning that there is a WIDE range of finishes that people call micro-serrated.

Similarly, if you were to ask the proponents of micro-serrated edges how they produce them, I think you would get enough different answers to suggest that the methods that people use to get these edges might explain the disparity in findings reported by the various camps (philosophies on edge finishes).

For example, some guys will polish an edge, then go back to a "coarse" stone and put on a microbevel (with that stone) and stop.

Others will use a bench strop to refine an edge formed with 220 (or other fairly coarse grit).

Still others will Power strop the edge above.

Still others will name other processes used to get this toothy, or coarse, or micro-serrated edge.

My point is that while Alloy is a HUGE variable, another biggie is the WAY these edges are put on. A power strop may have more of a burnishing effect than a bench strop, not using any strop at all will yield a lesser aligned edge...there is a lot to chew on here.

Further, how do you even gauge sharpness on a one of these edges? Certainly you can not use the same tests as a polished edge...though some of my recent observations indicates that you CAN to some extent.

The nature of some of these coarse edges will lend themselves to whittling hair, but if you introduce ANY slicing motion, the hair is immediately severed, or it bounces off the blade. This does not necessarily indicate that the edge is not capable of whittling that hair (because it does) but when you move the hair to a different facet edge in the blade, the angle between the cutting edge and the hair changes...and the hair reacts accordingly.

Cutting tissue is a test you have used in the past. This test by its nature may be a bad protocol for testing sharpness on a micro serrated edge because of the high variability of the angles of alignment on the cutting edge. Sort of like your fine edge probably would fail the test also if you failed to align the cutting edge correctly with the TP.

Does this make any sense to you?

make no mistake, I am not debating which type of edge is superior, or what will last longer...I am saying that quite often we have difficulty thinking outside the box in terms of our ideals, and are quick to dismiss an idea that is very different from those ideals.

The way a person perceives sharpness is an easy example of this. Some guys will dismiss a knife or edge REGARDLESS of how well it can perform EVERY task they need for a job, if it fails to shave their arm hair (which is a pretty worthless task for many people).

Where this is going is to point to the possibility that some people may think they have tested out some "coarse", or "micro-serrated", or whatever the kids are calling it, but perhaps they instead tested their idea of that this is, and dismissed it....and ultimately failed to look into anything else that while it goes by the same name, may actually be something different.

I decided to try some things that go against my paradigms. I am not saying that I am surprised or shocked....but I am exploring some other things that my stubborn nature prevented me from exploring before. I only have some preliminary results at this point, but so far...I am learning a lot!

Oh I agree, there are so many variables of what people do that it's impossible to narrow it all down.

That's why I always say this is how I do it and the results that I got using my method, but nothing is set in stone or the end all result.

The things one can learn by removing the variables like I have while interesting because I am measuring at certain points a long the way (20 Cuts). Most will never see this because they aren't doing the testing or just using the knife.

Edge Finishes can make a huge difference.

Edge Angle can make a huge difference.

Edge Geometry can make a Huge difference.

Blade geometry can make a huge difference.

There is also a huge difference in slicing cuts and push cutting, and I do mean huge.

 

[teacher]

Yes, the way I do it.... it is. Meaning... it works for me. YMMV.........

 

[unit]

Oh I agree, there are so many variables of what people do that it's impossible to narrow it all down.

That's why I always say this is how I do it and the results that I got using my method, but nothing is set in stone or the end all result.

The things one can learn by removing the variables like I have while interesting because I am measuring at certain points a long the way (20 Cuts). Most will never see this because they aren't doing the testing or just using the knife.

Edge Finishes can make a huge difference.

Edge Angle can make a huge difference.

Edge Geometry can make a Huge difference.

Blade geometry can make a huge difference.

There is also a huge difference in slicing cuts and push cutting, and I do mean huge.

I agree on all points!

I have appreciated your approach to testing, and your willingness to accept criticism. So often people will take a personal stake in their findings and they are unwilling to consider the thoughts of others.

Some times we need to step back and remember that we are discussing knives here (not each others mothers).

I offer my appreciation to those who continue to discuss and debate professionally, and keep this thread out of the mud!

 

[Ankerson]

I agree on all points!

I have appreciated your approach to testing, and your willingness to accept criticism. So often people will take a personal stake in their findings and they are unwilling to consider the thoughts of others.

Some times we need to step back and remember that we are discussing knives here (not each others mothers).

I offer my appreciation to those who continue to discuss and debate professionally, and keep this thread out of the mud!

Yeah I know, they are only knives and steels in the end.

Nothing is 100% or ever will be, that always needs to be understood, even machine testing isn't 100%.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Jim, I am learning that there is a WIDE range of finishes that people call micro-serrated.

Similarly, if you were to ask the proponents of micro-serrated edges how they produce them, I think you would get enough different answers to suggest that the methods that people use to get these edges might explain the disparity in findings reported by the various camps (philosophies on edge finishes).

For example, some guys will polish an edge, then go back to a "coarse" stone and put on a microbevel (with that stone) and stop.

Others will use a bench strop to refine an edge formed with 220 (or other fairly coarse grit).

Still others will Power strop the edge above.

Still others will name other processes used to get this toothy, or coarse, or micro-serrated edge.

My point is that while Alloy is a HUGE variable, another biggie is the WAY these edges are put on. A power strop may have more of a burnishing effect than a bench strop, not using any strop at all will yield a lesser aligned edge...there is a lot to chew on here.

Further, how do you even gauge sharpness on a one of these edges? Certainly you can not use the same tests as a polished edge...though some of my recent observations indicates that you CAN to some extent.

The nature of some of these coarse edges will lend themselves to whittling hair, but if you introduce ANY slicing motion, the hair is immediately severed, or it bounces off the blade. This does not necessarily indicate that the edge is not capable of whittling that hair (because it does) but when you move the hair to a different facet edge in the blade, the angle between the cutting edge and the hair changes...and the hair reacts accordingly.

Cutting tissue is a test you have used in the past. This test by its nature may be a bad protocol for testing sharpness on a micro serrated edge because of the high variability of the angles of alignment on the cutting edge. Sort of like your fine edge probably would fail the test also if you failed to align the cutting edge correctly with the TP.

Does this make any sense to you?

make no mistake, I am not debating which type of edge is superior, or what will last longer...I am saying that quite often we have difficulty thinking outside the box in terms of our ideals, and are quick to dismiss an idea that is very different from those ideals.

The way a person perceives sharpness is an easy example of this. Some guys will dismiss a knife or edge REGARDLESS of how well it can perform EVERY task they need for a job, if it fails to shave their arm hair (which is a pretty worthless task for many people).

Where this is going is to point to the possibility that some people may think they have tested out some "coarse", or "micro-serrated", or whatever the kids are calling it, but perhaps they instead tested their idea of what this type of edge is, and dismissed it....and ultimately failed to look into anything else that while it goes by the same name, may actually be something different.

I decided to try some things that go against my paradigms. I am not saying that I am surprised or shocked....but I am exploring some other things that my stubborn nature prevented me from exploring before. I only have some preliminary results at this point, but so far...I am learning a lot!

Well said!
HH

 

[HeavyHanded]

First bolded phrase...do you mean as grit size DECREASES the cutting length would increase? I think you do. The polished edge (HIGH GRIT) would better represent the shortest (straight line) distance, where a coarse (lower grit) would lead to a more irregular edge....right?

Second bolded phrase...I JUST got done conducting some experiments along these lines...my results would tend to agree and demonstrate this.

I mean as grit size increases - grit rating becomes smaller - 60 grit has a larger grit size than 800 grit. I think you got my intent, just wanted to make sure.

Basically what I am envisioning and probably poorly describing is that a coarse edge would appear under magnification as a series of scalloped out 'facets" whose edges intersect creating a very irregular, but contiguous edge. If you encounter a tiny portion of this edge that is aligned perpendicular to the fiber you are cutting, it will push cut it in much the same way a polished edge would...the polished edge just tends to make all these facets MUCH smaller and their intersection more closely approximates a straight line.

That's pretty much how I've come to understand it. This irregular play of "facets" is what makes a coarse edge more reliably bite and catch things like loose hanging fabric. Put some backing behind said fabric sample and the two (coarse and fine) will perform with greater similarity.

HH

 

[unit]

I mean as grit size increases - grit rating becomes smaller - 60 grit has a larger grit size than 800 grit. I think you got my intent, just wanted to make sure.

Yup, we understand each other!

Thanks for clarifying.