Coarse vs. Fine Stones For Finishing an Edge?

Leather would be better, gives the Sic slurry something to embed into and makes it cut finer because its sunk into the leather a bit. The soft surface of the leather also makes it easier to remove the burr because its gentle on the edge, less pressure less burr.
 
peppercorn said:
Also, any good sources for the silicon carbide stones? I free hand and the 1inch stones are just too narrow.
Click to expand...
Check any hardware store. Silicon hones are fairly easy to find. Most I've seen are coarse/fine double sided. I'm kind of guessing they are not as fine as the 400 hones they are talking about the fine side on my Sears silicon hone is pretty coarse. I personally finish with a Spyderco medium hone. DMT hones will flatten and give you alot of stone sluj to use on a strop. I use my DMT xxc to flatten my silicon hone all the time.
 
More good info guys. I am now fine tuning my plan thanks to all the input.
I hit Ace hardware today but they only had small 4'' hones. I am going to order the crystolon hones mentioned above.

PS
Also, I am digging this edge so far, the sharpness and how fast I was able to go from damaged to tree topping!
 
I used my Work Sharp to try and achieve a toothier edge by going from the 240MX belt directly to the 12000 belt(about 2-3 microns). The resulting edge had plenty of bite and was burr-free. Though I wonder if one could take it one step further by using a smooth steel to simply realign the burr to the middle instead of removing it, though I wouldn't be too crazy to leave a weak flopping piece of metal on the edge, I still have this glass rod I never use and can't figure out what to do with it.

I also have plenty of Silicon carbide powder from my Paper Wheels set that looks like it would work great on a strop, though I'm a little concerned about how well the powder would stay on the strop.
 
Noctis3880 said:
I also have plenty of Silicon carbide powder from my Paper Wheels set that looks like it would work great on a strop, though I'm a little concerned about how well the powder would stay on the strop.
Click to expand...

Use it on the rough side of the leather (sand it down nice and tight first if its too bushy) and it'll stay in place pretty good. I've also had very good luck smoothing a fair amount of dish soap into the leather, rubbing some grit on it, and letting it dry. I suspect this also has the effect - for better or worse - of toning down the abrasive qualities of the grit. Don't know what grades of dust you have, but I keep coming back to my loose 220 grit followed by a few passes on some black compound for my coarse finishing. I suspect if I had some 400 grit I'd get similar results without having to use the black compound at all. The 120 grit is mighty coarse, works great for deburring a coarse edge prior to "further refining" or to restore a coarse edge w/out putting it back on the stone. I have 60 grit as well, and that stuff will actually raise a burr on its own even with fairly light pressure, though the scratch pattern from a strop is lot less than you'd think.

HH
 
Yup the 4 inch are the more common. Sears has a 7 inch long one that is where I got mine. I'm pretty sure that HandAmerica was selling silicon powder at one time and suggested just rubbing it in without anything else and the leather would hold it on its own.
 
I used to like getting a nice polished edge, but then it came to be a waste of time, I felt that having a nice coarse edge does the job for me, never put a polished edge (Other than my straight razors) on a blade since
 
I agree. Plus, these findings are sound. I haven't sharpened to a polished edge in years and won't other than shaving. I think we need this information brought forward every year as this topic keeps coming up and people don't know the answer and misinformation can circulate. DM
 
I have kind of developed my own system here as of late, for my coarse edges. I use a Sharpmaker most of the time. I will thin my bevel on a DMT coarse, to a little less than 30 degrees. I then straighten everythng out perfect to 30, on the SM, with the diamond rods. It will burn hair and paper at this point. I use the brown stones to put a 40 degree micro on it. Last, I strop it on plain leather, using the smooth side.

I use my knives a lot. I am a fireman, and am always cutting stuff like seatbelts, webbing, and stuff like that. I also am always using my knife at my shop. I cut a lot of cardboard, which is triple corrugated, 1/4'' thick.

This newer edge that I am using cuts a lot better, and seems to last longer. When it does need touching up, it's fast. Just my experience, YMMV.
 
Noctis3880 said:
It depends on the material you're cutting.
Click to expand...


Just realized this was a seriously old thread. An oldie but goodie. :D Okay, so I agree with this two year old comment. And I'd add that it depends on your steel, too.

Personally, I'm an office wuss, and I never need to cut manila rope or break boxes down. I cut fruit, string, plastic ties, and stuff like that. I don't even use my knives for opening packages because I hate getting packing tape gunk on my edges. I use a box cutter for that. Once in a blue moon, I'll have a "tough" project, like cutting some plastic strapping where my knife will have to work (box cutters are way too dull and flimsy for that). I use EDC knives with premium steels and I keep them at a very low angle and relatively-high degree of refinement for good slicing. My daily carry in CPM D2 has a 22 degree primary angle with a 30 degree microbevel, finished at 3 micron (Spyderco Ultrafine) and stropped at 1 micron (Dia-Paste). It's what works for my needs and preferences. Goes through an orange like it's not there.

However, I am still trying to find the perfect finishing steps for craptastic kitchen knives (of which I sharpen a lot). I know you can't polish a turd, but most of the knives I get to sharpen from other people are these types of knives. It's almost "darned if you do, darned if you don't," whatever stone you choose. Any suggestions highly welcome.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
However, I am still trying to find the perfect finishing steps for craptastic kitchen knives (of which I sharpen a lot). I know you can't polish a turd, but most of the knives I get to sharpen from other people are these types of knives. It's almost "darned if you do, darned if you don't," whatever stone you choose. Any suggestions highly welcome.
Click to expand...


Allow me Sir... to put in yet another shameless plug and other alternative suggestions. Use whatever stone is necessary for repairing/resetting the bevel, then use:

Your Arashiyama 1k to "finish" the edge. Sharpen as usual, then claim some of the mud from this stone with a sheet of paper and carefully wrap it around the dry 6k. Don't saturate it, use just enough water to float the slurry and drag a sheet of paper over the surface of the 1k to collect it. Wrapped around the 6k, the paper should be damp enough to press it nice and flat, but not so wet that its breaking down. You should see the abrasive content coloring the paper. Strop with this to top off the edge - no point in stropping on leather or even with plain paper unless the blade in question is obviously for chopping - the end user will never notice the difference, and the grit from the 1k will work that softer steel nice and easy. If the metal is a real dud, add a bit more water to make the slurry more mobile but try not to overdo it.
I find that method imparts a great edge on this sort of tool, and you're probably using the 1k anyway. I used a diamond sawsall blade to cut 1/4" slice off the end of all my waterstones to use as a perfectly matched Nagura - comes in very handy for generating extra mud when desired or when I wanted to use some slurry but didn't have much grinding to do. A DMT credit card or similar will work too, but it slowly trashed my coarse DMT over time to use it like this (also meaning the DMT was shedding grit into my slurry).

Or you could:
Reset the bevel with appropriate stone and use the black compound with a touch of oil on the washboard. This will give a very nice edge to softer steel, and very little pressure is needed. For those unfortunate enough to not have a Washboard, a sheet of paper wrapped around the coarse side of a combination stone and dosed with black compound will work very well too. A drop of oil worked into the paper allows a bit more mobility to the abrasive and tends to work very well on softer steel. Also a real nice vanilla edge for the average user. Finish on dry plain paper for larger choppers, leave some texture for slicers.

And lastly:
Use 600 grit sandpaper on the Washboard and finish on plain paper, using a bit of pressure to burnish the edge - don't overdo it, softer metal can be worked to a relatively fine edge in this manner and then it will start to burr and degrade along the apex (overhoned). This works well on tougher steel or softer kitchen fare, also a nice middle of the road edge that most users will think plenty sharp.

IMHO the key to doing the softer or cheaper stuff is to not overdo it. It might not take a real fine edge or an overly toothy one for that matter. So middle of the road and done with the understanding the steel is soft and less is more, maybe a nod to the intended usage and spend an extra minute polishing the Chef's knives or obvious choppers - stropping on plain paper or newspaper is usually plenty.

As for the thread topic - edge prep depends on intended use - coarse edge for slicing, fine edge for chopping.
 
Strange.

all my chef knives for slicing prefers polished edges. Ive been doing sushi for a while, polish simply is better for slicing foods.
my gyuto for chopping is also polished.
 
HwangJino said:
Strange.

all my chef knives for slicing prefers polished edges. Ive been doing sushi for a while, polish simply is better for slicing foods.
my gyuto for chopping is also polished.
Click to expand...

How many of Mag's 'customers' do you think are cutting sushi? How about poly bags of frozen vegetables, the odd chicken breast, or steak, pre-cooked roaster chicken, fibrous vegetables. In my experience, especially when talking about the average Western kitchen cutlery steel, the polished edge is only going to hold up to chopping, mincing etc and only if it is used religiously on a cutting board and touched up often. An edge grind in the mid to low range will hold up a lot longer for the quasi-food prep/utility work most of these knives will be called on to perform - in my experience.
 
I cut a lot of frozen things other than sushi as well.

my kitchen guys also come to me beg for polishrd edges on their heavy duty.

im thinking I do different polish than most people here.
 
HwangJino said:
I cut a lot of frozen things other than sushi as well.

my kitchen guys also come to me beg for polishrd edges on their heavy duty.

im thinking I do different polish than most people here.
Click to expand...


Perhaps, I'm thinking maybe you do coarse edges a little differently too.
 
A standard perfect example ^. I've seen this before. Many guys don't use their knives for cutting the test material some of us labor long hours in cutting to gain the experience and knowledge in these tests. Yet, are sure their polished edge works better because they enjoy sharpening. Nothing wrong with enjoying sharpening. Still, these tests can be duplicated... DM
 
Cutting miles of sisal rope is what I'm talking about to arrive at some conclusions. All the while giving up several months of weekends while doing it. At least that's the price I paid to learn. DM
 
HwangJino said:
I cut a lot of frozen things other than sushi as well.

my kitchen guys also come to me beg for polishrd edges on their heavy duty.

im thinking I do different polish than most people here.
Click to expand...

I know you do a mean polish. I used to polish all my edges too. Then I had to do a lot of cardboard cutting which kind of showed me the difference in edge retention between a fine edge and a coarse edge when cutting abrasive materials. Then I bought some rope to "test" and to confirm my usage experience. I still like a mirror polished bevel but with a coarse edge for an all around useful edge.

When you do cut specific media, it is a good idea to optimize an edge for that material.

May I ask for some clarification? I know that you like the cutting performance of a fine edge but are you suggesting that it will hold an edge longer than a coarse one?
 
David Martin said:
Cutting miles of sisal rope is what I'm talking about to arrive at some conclusions. All the while giving up several months of weekends while doing it. At least that's the price I paid to learn. DM
Click to expand...


That is a great picture David! Thanks again for all the hard work you've put into this.

Martin
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top