Coffee thoughts... M390

[RCFL]

I like that idea, but the manufacturers wouldn't.

Thing is, the public is unrealistic and you can't please everyone. For every knife buyer who thinks he needs a high hardness steel, there is another who thinks he needs a tough steel. No way is it possible to please everyone and each side refuses to acknowledge that the other has a valid point of view.

My answer is for the manufacturers to do what they do and let the chips fall where they will. I see no real reason for 3v to be in a pocket knife. I could say the same for Maxamet. There may be a reason for M390 to be in a larger fixed blade, other than a skinning knife, but Cruwear would probably work just fine and if the blade was not labeled as to the steel, we probably would not notice.

Many people use their knives at work and for them, bringing the edge back is very high on the list of wants. You would have a hard time selling them a hard, high carbide steel that takes too long to restore the edge. They might just be right......

We have too many Walter Mittys who think they need more than what is realistic and are disappointed if someone writes that they heard that XYZ is running their steel soft. If it does the job well, be happy. If the knife is a drawer dweller and is never used, then the steel doesn't matter.

The Signal to Noise is way to high; ignore it.

 

[Leo Greer]

You’re absolutely correct, for most of the folks who simply collect and don’t ever use their knives consistently the steel doesn’t make a practical difference.

However, you have to take into account that people are impractical by nature. I don’t have the funds to buy and collect (I typically buy used, enjoy for a few months or a year, and then sell), but if I were a collector it would increase my enjoyment to have a knife with a heat treat I consider more “ideal”, even if I never used it.

For reference, I don’t hold on to any knives I won’t actually use.

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we care about a lot of impractical little details here in the knife community, and it’s just for pure fun and enjoyment!

Ask the people who watch that game where dudes bonk their heads together repeatedly and throw around an oddly shaped object for hours at a time how they feel about their impractical love.

 

[RCFL]

Absolutely right about our impractical buying. A few years ago everyone just had to have a .338 Lapua. Before that, it was Hummers. No telling what will be next, but if you can figure it out and get there first, you can make a wad. I'm thinking the "need" for at least a 250 level diesel pickup will continue.

Back in the 1970s when I was hunting a fair bit, we all had to have .270, .243, .30-06, 7mm Magnum, even though the woods and swamps around here are so dense that it is rare to have a 100 yard shot unless it is down a dirt road or a power line right of way. The humble .30-30 is plenty for all except our egos and pride. I'm to blame here, too, because I have had all the above other than .338 and .243. And a big honking diesel pickup.

Knives are no different.

 

[R.Russell]

Wouldn't it be cool if the bigger manufacturers offered a choice of a tuff or hard varience in popular models? Same knife, same steel, two options. Perhaps slight variations in the grinds to lean into the attributes. They could even offer two separate warranty parameters to cover their exposure.

*Edit After considering my idea here, I've realized it's just a much more complicated version of the same knife in different steels. lol

Worksharp has done that more or less with their first round of folders. I got my buddy one of the reverse tantos for Xmas and handled it a bit before I forked it over.

Someone said previously that 3V makes no sense in a small folder. Well if you’re grinding a knife as thin as they did (or making a razor) having all that toughness keeps it from chipping out. Their drop point has thicker geometry and is offered in M390. So a solid one two offering to start a line of knives.

The one-piece milled magnesium handle was really sweet and feather light. A knife to be used and abused with as few parts as possible. Think I’ll be gettin one

 

[Mk-211]

Worksharp has done that more or less with their first round of folders. I got my buddy one of the reverse tantos for Xmas and handled it a bit before I forked it over.

Someone said previously that 3V makes no sense in a small folder. Well if you’re grinding a knife as thin as they did (or making a razor) having all that toughness keeps it from chipping out. Their drop point has thicker geometry and is offered in M390. So a solid one two offering to start a line of knives.

The one-piece milled magnesium handle was really sweet and feather light. A knife to be used and abused with as few parts as possible. Think I’ll be gettin one

There was a RMX restock today!

 

[waynemanning74]

Not that this has anything to do with knives but as a carpenter we were hanging drywall once and noticed how badly we were getting off layout I/E drywall not breaking on studs. I for some reason checked the measurement of the actual drywall and realized it was an 1/8th inch short of 4'. That adds up very quickly. When I called they said they have an 1/8"th inch tolerance which is ridiculous. It seems quality control in lots of items is getting worse and worse.
I to would expect much tighter tolerance in a knife at that price point.

 

[The True North]

But a knife at 58 Rc is not necessarily more poorly heat treated than one at 61 Rc.

But that's not the point at all.

 

[BP Green]

I agree that most wouldn’t even notice anyway. But I also think that if you charge premium prices for premium materials you should deliver a premium product regardless of what the buyer will or won’t do with it. Just my opinion.

 

[XtianAus]

I know this goes against the trend, but edge retention is the least of my considerations when evaluating a steel.
Mainly because I am not great at sharpening, and knives with good edge retention are usually harder to sharpen.

I like m390's corrosion resistance but it lacks toughness and is difficult to sharpen and therefore not appealing to me.

 

[Twindog]

But that's not the point at all.

The OP said: "...an American production knife maker offering a knife with an HRC of 58-61. Is that considered acceptable quality control these days?"

To me, that comment suggests that a lower hardness is akin to lower quality. That's what I don't agree with. Different hardness just means different qualities. Take Magnacut: I prefer a hardness around 60 Rc, where toughness (resistance to chipping and breaking) is very high. Most people want it run harder, up around 64 Rc, where 29 percent of the blade's toughness is sacrificed for a little more wear resistance.

I see MagnaCut as a nicely balanced steel -- balanced between toughness and edge retention -- at 60 Rc.

On the other hand, Larrin's new MagnaMax is more of a high-wear steel. I'd prefer it run at its higher hardness range because it gives amazing wear resistance while retaining the toughness of S35VN.

Others may prefer a different hardness, but that difference in choice, if well informed, would reflect wanting a different balance between toughness and edge retention, not expecting a high- vs low-quality heat treat.

 

[Dagoth_Blur]

You wouldn’t notice anyway.

 

[Twindog]

Yeah, people say that, but the differences in steel alloys and hardnesses are large.

Look at Ankerson's results in the Knife Review subform. A Cold Steel Recon 1 in Aus 8 and a Spyderco Stretch in VG10 got 160 cuts to a given level of dullness.

By comparison, a Spyderco Military in S110V and a Manix 2 in the same steel got over 1,000 cuts.

A Phil Wilson Coyote Meadow in CPM 10V got 2,400 cuts.

And look at the toughness videos that Nathan Carothers does.

Anyone using knives would notice those differences.

 

[The True North]

To me, that comment suggests that a lower hardness is akin to lower quality.

That's not at all what OP said, though.

They were simply questioning whether a spread of 4 points on the scale is considered acceptable for M390 or not.


You are taking that and running an unrelated tangent, which I found puzzling. That's all.

 

[Twindog]

That's not at all what OP said, though.

They were simply questioning whether a spread of 4 points on the scale is considered acceptable for M390 or not.


You are taking that and running an unrelated tangent, which I found puzzling. That's all.

OK, I see what you're saying. It's actually 3 points of difference, but that is a lot and a fair criticism.

Thank you for that correction.

 

[dfarm]

Obviously making thousands of knives increases your workload and allows for more errors. But you’d think the bigger companies could actually afford to scrap knives that didn’t make spec, something a smaller shop couldn’t necessarily do.

I'd bet money against a manufacturer that makes thousands of knives testing the hardness of every blade.

They probably grab a sample out of each batch that comes back from ht and only tests the sample size unless they find one/some that fall outside of their specifications.

As a dude making knives by hand and doing heat treat in house, I can take the time to test every single one because it's only a handful at a time.

I like that idea, but the manufacturers wouldn't.

Thing is, the public is unrealistic and you can't please everyone. For every knife buyer who thinks he needs a high hardness steel, there is another who thinks he needs a tough steel. No way is it possible to please everyone and each side refuses to acknowledge that the other has a valid point of view.

My answer is for the manufacturers to do what they do and let the chips fall where they will. I see no real reason for 3v to be in a pocket knife. I could say the same for Maxamet. There may be a reason for M390 to be in a larger fixed blade, other than a skinning knife, but Cruwear would probably work just fine and if the blade was not labeled as to the steel, we probably would not notice.

Many people use their knives at work and for them, bringing the edge back is very high on the list of wants. You would have a hard time selling them a hard, high carbide steel that takes too long to restore the edge. They might just be right......

We have too many Walter Mittys who think they need more than what is realistic and are disappointed if someone writes that they heard that XYZ is running their steel soft. If it does the job well, be happy. If the knife is a drawer dweller and is never used, then the steel doesn't matter.

The Signal to Noise is way to high; ignore it.

If a non enthusiast walks up to my table at a show, they ask what steel stays sharp the longest 95% of the time and how difficult it is to sharpen the other 5%(or they just ask what's the best steel, then get frustrated when I don't just name a steel)

 

[The True North]

OK, I see what you're saying. It's actually 3 points of difference, but that is a lot and a fair criticism.

Thank you for that correction.

Depends how you look at it, I guess?

58, 59, 60, 61. It could easily be argued that that is four different possible hardnesses.

 

[Twindog]

Depends how you look at it, I guess?

58, 59, 60, 61. It could easily be argued that that is four different possible hardnesses.

Four different hardnesses, for sure. But three points of difference.

So 58 to 59 is one point of difference. 58 to 60 is two. And 58 to 61 makes three points of difference.

 

[The True North]

Four different hardnesses, for sure. But three points of difference.

So 58 to 59 is one point of difference. 58 to 60 is two. And 58 to 61 makes three points of difference.

Let's call it a four point spread then and settle the semantics.

 

[Monofletch]

It says m390 but it could be lawnmower decking and beer cans. But, it still opens my Amazon boxes!!

 

[Chronovore]

It's a folding pocket knife, it's for cutting. If I'm buying M390 I want a proper heat treat at above 60 to get the most out of the steel. Maybe I'm being unreasonable.

I don't think that you are being unreasonable. On the one hand, even the Chinese manufacturers typically offer a range of only two, like 58-60 or 59-61. (Whether or not the product is within that range is another question but that's a question for any manufacturer.) I feel like 58-61 is pretty wide and yeah, I do expect more from American companies.

On the other hand, the range itself is too low. A long-standing question is whether the jump to a super steel is worth it if they are only running it at like 58 HRC. Here again, some of the Chinese manufacturers have caught on. Some have noticeably improved heat treatments in recent years and some have increased hardness. Two good examples are WE running M390 at 59-61 and Kubey's KB line going up to 60-62.

Going a step further with some of what T Twindog said is the choice of M390 in the first place. That steel achieved a sort of legendary status as "the premium steel" a long time ago. In the time since, we've seen lots of production knives in M390 that fall way short on performance (and not just from China). So there is this mythical idea of M390 performance that you might actually get on a Shirogorov but most of the knives being sold on that idea never get there. Even for those that do, the relatively low toughness is still a thing. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of other great steels I'd rather have even if I could be sure of an optimum heat treatment. So I guess it's fair to say that I'd also be expecting more interesting choices from an American company.