Cold Steel, Benchmade, and Spyderco's Intellectual Property

Hi 45guy,

Perhaps we can just agree to disagree and keep the thread somewhat on topic. My apologies if my perception, though different from yours, slipped off topic or offended. We've been through the "it looks like to me" far too many times.

I would guess that you fall into Thom's category of liking the Blackwood/Benchmade and feel their IP practices are ok. How do you feel about Cold Steel's IP practices?

Thank you for your kind understanding and cooperation.

sal
 
Isn't the axis lock Benchmades "round hole" which the ball bearing lock is redesigned copy of. How different is using three holes than that? thanks Larry
 
Agree to disagree.

Sal ....FYI : I care not for Cold Steel knives , their views , practices or lack of in any way. I see a knife that I like , if the person designed it or making it , is not someone I would be willing to have as a friend then I look elsewhere.
There are few custom makers ( and production companies as well ) that fall into my " Never" category.

I will comment no further on this .
 
LarryM,

I think they're sufficiently different in design and function to not be considered as such. Keep in mind that most locks operate on the same principle of placing an "obstruction" at the tang which is compressed, thus keeping the blade from closing. The similarity with the AXIS, the ball-bearing lock, and the deadbolt lock (that CRKT and Gerber use) is that they engage from back to front as opposed to the side with liner-lock variants and from the top (or back) with the lockback.

Whereas there are no functional or visual differences between the round hole used on the Blackwood collab and Spydies. And there's the whole "trademark" issue on which I'm not qualified to comment.
 
seeing as I know as much about Spyderco's as most of you know about Blackwoods I must make one last comment before I unsubscribe to this thread. The Dodo does indeed look like the axis lock to me , had one of those things in my hand this weekend. Did not know it was made by Spyderco until just now , thought it was a Turber design and never gave it a 2nd thought.

The lock on that is not close enuff to the axis lock to raise on eyebrow but the holes are ??

Keep the holes , bury the hatchets.



Beside when god created woman he patented the hole...all ya'll been knockin him off ever since :D
 
I agree the locks have enough differences to get by any copyright problems , but the ball bearing lock could be called a copy just like the three holes. Didn't we see post earlier about the knife in question. Larry



"No offense to Mr. Blackwood, but to me, Mr. Blackwood's design looks like a Ken Onion designed Spyderco with a Chris Reeve style Integeral linerlock. But I am an inventor/designer and am probably more conscious of and more aware of the "origins" of ideas and "proper" credit for same. I've also been watching closely for more than a few years."
 
Originally posted by the45guy
seeing as I know as much about Spyderco's as most of you know about Blackwoods I must make one last comment before I unsubscribe to this thread. The Dodo does indeed look like the axis lock to me , had one of those things in my hand this weekend. Did not know it was made by Spyderco until just now , thought it was a Turber design and never gave it a 2nd thought.

The lock on that is not close enuff to the axis lock to raise on eyebrow but the holes are ??
Click to expand...

As far as we can tell, no one, not even Benchmade, feels the ball bearing lock is a ripoff of the Axis lock. Therefore, it's not, and that's the answer to your question, like it or not. I don't know what the axis lock patent covers, but if it is a patent and not a trademark, I don't believe "look" is the main question. Furthermore, if the axis patent is specific enough that it covers a locking pin driven by an omega spring onto the blade back, then it might not cover a round ball bearing driven by (say) a coil spring, right? You guys are making weak comparisons and then acting as if it's case-closed. My opinion on that might change if I heard that Benchmade's lawyers had quietly contacted Spyderco's, and I saw an axis patent that obviously covered the ball lock.

By contrast, the Benchmade knife definitely contains Spyderco's trademark in it, and is almost certainly a violation of Spyderco's trademark. It also sounds like it might be a violation of Kershaw's as well.

I've come around to thinking it's barely a question of fact that that Benchmade knife violates Spyderco's trademark -- all you have to do is look at that knife without a pre-determined conclusion. Even as a huge Benchmade fan, unless I'm purposely trying not to notice it, I look at that knife and I see Spyderco's trademark hole, right there at the front. What I think the real question has been all along is: is Spyderco's trademark valid, since some (like me) feel that it covers a functional feature? Perhaps Neil and Benchmade have gone into this with a clear head, and the intention all along of challenging Spyderco's trademark on that basis. If the PTO were made up of knife nuts, I think they'd have a chance of succeeding, but coupling non-knife-nuts in the PTO (who may not see a functional difference between a round and elliptical hole) with previous public Benchmade statements that their elliptical hole works better than a round hole, and things are up in the air.

Will be interesting for sure!

Joe
 
If I understand this tread it is about a company or person copying someones ideas. I think the ball bearing lock would fall into copying or redesigning someone elses idea. Larry
 
There's a significant difference between creating a distinctive variation on a certain concept (which I believe was established before the AXIS lock), and copying it.
 
Originally posted by LarryM
If I understand this tread it is about a company or person copying someones ideas. I think the ball bearing lock would fall into copying or redesigning someone elses idea. Larry
Click to expand...

LarryM,

This thread started as an observation from me that many of us were happy to get mad at Cold Steel for a blatant copy of a Spyderco design and reticent to fault Benchmade for doing the exact same thing.

The ball-bearing lock looks similar in many peoples' eyes to the axis lock, but it's not so similar as to infringe upon the ideas of William McHenry and Jason Williams. For that matter, eliptical holes look similar to round holes; much more so than the ball-bearing lock looks like the axis lock; but they're not being called into question and I don't think they should be.
 
sph3ric pyramid ,Maybe that is what Benchmade thinks regarding the three holes. I won't be buying one of the new Blackwood Benchmades unless it's made in a left hand model anyway. If it were made in a left hand model I would buy it with a oval, round hole or a thumb stud. I agree that Benchmade could avoid any conflict by making the large hole oval shaped and not round. Larry
 
I don't know why you're all stressing the Spyderco resemblance when the 630 is so obviously a framelock Emerson Commander with a curved blade back. Of course, the Usual Suspects will buy one of those without a peep. :D I think it's one of the greatest handle shapes ever designed.

BM's axis, SOG's arc, and CS's ultra locks are all variants of Blackie Collins's bolt-action, made ambidextrous. The ball lock is much more secure since it doesn't rely on a bar sticking out on either side of the handle, and the coil spring can be ramped up in strength more easily than the others. A round hole is a round hole, but a BB is not a cylinder.
 
Thom, I understood your example about Cold Steel and their practices. But in your reply you came up with the answer to your thread. Most poeple didn't have a problem when Spyderco took the Axis lock added their ideas and came up with the ball bearing lock. Just as most people don't have a problem with Benchmade putting three round holes in a knife. Larry
 
Larry, I think we understand your reasoning, but just think it's incorrect ... Spyderco didn't take an exact copy of the axis lock, and then add a few flourishes to it -- again, the bb lock is not an axis lock -- but it looks like that's what Benchmade did with the holes. Those three holes are: the Spyderco trademark exactly, plus a couple of smaller holes next to it. Plain and simple, one isn't a problem legally or otherwise, and one is -- the two aren't comparable.

All that said, I'll re-emphasize that I love that knife, and if you know me you know I've been (and still am) a huge Benchmade fan. I don't know whether or not Benchmade can challenge Spyderco's trademark based on the functionality clause (though I'm guessing such a challenge could be unsuccessful). But I'm guessing that there will be changes to that knife before it comes out. I'll probably buy one no matter what.

Joe
 
Originally posted by LarryM
Most poeple didn't have a problem when Spyderco took the Axis lock added their ideas and came up with the ball bearing lock. Just as most people don't have a problem with Benchmade putting three round holes in a knife.
Click to expand...

LarryM,

If Benchmade were using ovals instead of circles, I'd agree with you. Spyderco's ball-bearing lock has:

  1. [color=dark-blue]A different type of detent (a bar instead of a cylinder as Esav said)[/color]
  2. A plunger to hold the lock in place (instead of springs)
  3. A single coil spring pushing the plunger (instead of two omega springs holding the cylinder)
    [/list=1]

    How many differences are there between the round opening hole used in the Benchmade 630 and the round opening hole used by Spyderco?

    That's where I believe the comparison ceases to be similar.
 
The Blackwood/BM uses a round hole as the "opening device". The round hole "opening device" is a Spyderco trademark.

A simple solution would be a thumb stud to open with the three hole Blackwood "signature" following it.

Paul
 
Thom, below is Spyderco's description of the ball bearing lock from the Dodo.

"Spyderco's new Ball Bearing Lock is a pea-sized ball of stainless steel, which drops into a recessed area in the blade's Tang locking the knife open. Once dropped in, the ball is compressed, unable to move or wobble offering remarkable strength and security. Unlock the blade by pulling back on the ball, which is accessible on either side of the handle for left or right-handed use. The beauty of the lock is its simple sphere shape, a difficult shape to break, warp or wear out."

So let's list the things the locks have in common.
1. Both have a round device that locks in the blade tang to keep the blade open or closed. Axis lock round bar, Ball bearing round ball. Sounds the same to me.
2. Both use a spring to tension there locking system. Axis uses two springs ball bearing one.
3 To release both systems you must pull the bar are cylinder to release the lock.
4. Both are accessible from a cut out in to the handle allowing each lock to be ambidextrous.

I will admit there are differences in the two lock styles but just enough to get past any patent issues. A copy is a copy whether it's a locking device or a way to open the knife. If Thom and Joe or anyone else doesn't see that maybe they need to open their eyes.
Larry ;)
 
I still submit that there are significant differences between the two. If you are familiar with the other locking styles that are (and have been) in existence and their inherent similarities, you'll see that those variations make a huge difference. The only true "similarities" (i.e. visual similarities) between the AXIS and the ball-bearing lock are the cut-out slots and the fact that it's ambidextrous in use. The rest of the functional features on both the AXIS and the ball-bearing lock share similarities in concept with the deadbolt lock which (I think) established this particular subset of lock type. So the comparison isn't particularly valid.

A hole is a hole. It's not even a variation on Spyderco's trademark. It's a carbon copy, albeit with decorative holes, similar to maybe a Viele or an Onion. However, I've no comment on the legality of it. I'm a big fan of both companies, hopefully Benchmade will state their position on this and whatnot.
 
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