Cold Steel Steals the Wave. No doubt about it.

STR

STR

Knifemaker/Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
12,955
Boy talk about regret. Here I am guilty of actually recommending this guys knives but it is all changed now. I have no respect for Lynn Thompson at all now. This is crossing the line in my opinion.

A few days back I got the Cold Steel "More Proof" dvd package and a new catalog in the mail. I didn't think much of it really because I had heard about it but tonight I was bored and watched it. I had not seen the new DVD but had only seen the old one.

In their new one for the knives, from frames 557 to 611 Lynn Thompson actually says, "the Ti Lite can be drawn and opened in one motion by snagging a quilion, located at the base of it's blade on the edge of a sturdy pocket". Of course they show it being used and opened this way also, just like a Wave.

I happen to have discussed this with my friend Ernie Emerson and know for a fact Lynn Thompson does not have permission to do this. He is guilty of stealing my friend Ernie Emerson's intellectual property, is advertising it as a quick deployment knife by snagging the pocket the same way Emerson knives does and should be punished accordingly.

This is the last straw for me. Forgive me if this is a repeat post and I'm just way behind the times. I did a search and did not see anything like it already posted so I wanted to make my findings public. I have supported CS for quite a number of years and even recommended their products in the past. I even did so tonight on this forum for one of their Ultimate Hunter folders which I bought recently and have really liked and used until I was so disquested with what I saw just a few minutes ago. I hope Ernie pursues this blatant theft of his intellectual property by a competitor. It really has my blood pressure up I can tell you that!

I have always believed in giving the benefit of the doubt to anyone and I really do believe in tolerance even if I have lost it a few rare times on these forums to some fine folks I probably still owe an apology to. Lynn may have some excuse in saying the design isn't his but that won't cut it with me now. I actually saw CS, and more specifically Lynn Thompson, advertise the Ti-Lite to be used like a Waved Emerson in this video. I knew there was really no way to legally pursue CS for theft until this happened. I hope he has to pay for this thievery.

If Lynn Thompson was half way honorable and had any integrity at all he would have done this the right way and requested permission from Ernie to do this just like Spyderco and myself. I will not support Lynn Thompson or his products ever again after what I witnessed here tonight. I don't care if his products walk on water. I'm actually sorry I ever stood up for them now.

STR
 
Yup, we thought the same thing when it first came out. Hmm, what a surprise.. ::sighs to cold steel
 
STR said:
In their new one for the knives, from frames 557 to 611 Lynn Thompson actually says, "the Ti Lite can be drawn and opened in one motion by snagging a quilion, located at the base of it's blade on the edge of a sturdy pocket". Of course they show it being used and opened this way also, just like a Wave.
Click to expand...
Not defending Lynn Thompson in any way. Just wanted to get the facts straight. Lynn did not design the Ti-Light. That's a Phil Boguzewski design. The quillions are not a rip-off of the Wave. Phil's been making that model before Ernie came out with the Wave. The fact that the quillion can be used in a similar fashion as a Wave is pure coincidental in terms of the design.

However, blatantly exploiting that feature is unethical on Lynn's part.
 
i dont think its similar at all. its not positioned at the same place for example, its behind the pivot, its turned the opposite way. i dont think this is a ripoff at all. but still i dont want a cold steel knife
 
What did you expect from Cold Steel?

Perhaps they should change their name to Cold Steal.
 
This is making a mountain out of a molehill. Did Ernie steal the hook on the "bottle opener" Kershaw Talon? Did Darrell Ralph steal the Ti-Lite quillion for his Madd Maxx?

All these designers came up with a serendipitous similar result, without setting out to steal anything from anyone. Ernie wisely patented a particular design for a particular purpose. This does not forbid other designers from developing alternate opening systems.

There's enough problems in the world without trying to read theft into every design that's not totally unique. Especially since most really unique designs are worthless -- or someone would have done them before.
 
A quillion is not a wave, a double gaurd on the Maxx is not a wave, a zip tie is not a wave on a spyder hole ad nauseum. A spyder hole cut to wave open maybe be close to a wave but it is not the same thing as you don't get sued for patent infringement. This stuff is killin me. keepem sharp
 
Lynn Thompson can never do anything right.I have plenty of CS knives and not 1 has ever failed me.I love 'em.Good knives for the money.Cry babies, because he sells so many?
 
hardheart said:
don't you cut waves in your own folders?
Click to expand...

Some people may modify their own folders, but these folks don't attempt to market their modified knives based on this feature. Therein lies the issue.

If CS were to produce a knife that could potentially be opened this way (like the Ti-Lite), it would be a little more acceptable as long as they didn't declare it as a feature of the product. The gripe comes from the marketing, which indicates a deliberate use of an idea (not an accidental "Hey, I just bought this knife, and I figured out that I can open it like an Emerson!").

Peace.
 
CHAINS said:
Lynn Thompson can never do anything right.I have plenty of CS knives and not 1 has ever failed me.I love 'em.Good knives for the money.Cry babies, because he sells so many?
Click to expand...
I believe I hear the sound of a human completely discrediting themselves. Oh well. :yawn:
 
This is a hot subject, and the real issue here is about property. Intellectual in this case. Should a smart guy be able to get a monopoly over a design or idea that he developed ? And to what extent ?

To each his own answer to that.

I think it's in the consumer's interest to see good ideas generalized, as long as the patents and laws are respected. Would you like to live in a world where Spyderco would be the only company from which one could get a one-handed opening folder ?

I haven't seen the CS knife you talk about, so I can't say specifically, but from what I read here the functionality is the same with a slightly different design... So it's border line. Something like lawful but not 100% honest. I don't know. One thing is sure though : in my mind, Mr. Emerson still is the proud creator of the wave system... I do respect him a lot, and in the mean while, I believe he will be able to get 3 squares a day, copied or not.

Just my humble opinion of course...

David
 
I had a Ti Lite for a short period of time, and I had a waved Emerson, I think it was a CQC7, for a short time. I didn't see any similarity between the two. Emersons designs aren't for me, and Cold Steels president can be a donkey at times.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
All these designers came up with a serendipitous similar result, without setting out to steal anything from anyone.
Click to expand...
I agree with EB on this one. Especially considering that just about ANY folding knife with an extensive enough double guard or quillion incorporated into the blade can be opened using the same, or similar technique to a Waved knife. Does this make all those designs ripoffs?
I think the back quillion on the ti-lite is pointed the wrong way- back instead of forward- which makes it useless as a thumb rest and harder to open using the wave technique. Then again if CS changed it to work for the better imagine how much louder the "Wave ripoff" people would scream over it.
 
Yes. I make Waves for other peoples' folders and charge for it. I also have Ernie Emerson's written permission to do so. Whats your point?

Also, I don't consider this bashing. Bashing is akin to slander. It has to be made up and false claims. This is truth guys. He has gone from having an underground Waved folder to blatantly advertising it the same way. The video demo of it being used is exactly like watching the Wave demo off of Ernie's web site in the video vault. Exactly!

I'm more than aware that the Ti-Lite has been out for a while and that it is someone elses design. The design goes way back to my youth. I had a very similar Italian stilleto when I was a boy. I'm also more than aware that the knife from Cold Steel worked like a Waved folder. This has been 'underground knowledge' for some time. Everyone wondered how much of a coincidence it was that CS had the grooves on the opposite side of the one quilion. Well, it is no big secret that it was simply so it could grip the pocket better to open the knife but it was never advertised that way you see?.

It was one thing when CS didnt' focus or mention this fact in their advertisements. It is entirely another when they do. So long as it remained so that it was not being sold as a Waved folder capable of quick deployment, even if it did work that way no one really lost sleep over it because it was not being sold as a "Wave". There were no close up pics of the knife showing the quilions in the catalog and no mention of this feature at all in any ads or the DVDs. The old DVD that I have does not have this mentioned at all when Lynn gets to the Ti-Lite demos.

It is the new one, the two pack set with the 'bonus CD' that just came that now has this feature added about the Ti-Lite in the demo. It is being advertised and sold now to work like a Wave. This is a change from the last CD I recieved and quite frankly it shocked me. This is where Lynn is crossing the line from what could have been seen as mere conicidence into what is now clearly deliberate theft of intellectual property.

Ernie didn't give Lynn permission to do this. Lynn didn't go the correct route and ask for and recieve permission by collaborating with him as Spyderco did. I asked Ernie in an email about this. Lynn is a thief plain and simple. If I hear otherwise and learn that something has changed since my email I'll be the first to apologize and stand corrected. But that won't happen guys. He just took it from Ernie like he has done with anything else he saw that he wanted. This is no different than breaking and entering in my opinon. Its low. Rancid pond scum low.
STR
 
If Lynn was really trying to copy Ernest completely, he'd have lost that spare tire and put some grey in his goatee. :D
 
Thats good. Humor. We needed some of that. I really didn't start this thread to get so serious or turn it into a bash thread. I was shocked at this blatant action and know that LT is crossing the line this time.

I'm not about to stand here and say that CS makes crap. They don't. Their knives are fine. I am just not going to support them with my $ any longer. Ernie is a friend of mine. He is also, in my opinion a modern day hero. This man spends his own time, volunteers long hours and months of his time away from his family to train our troops, and our allied troops overseas to prepare for the possibility of another terrorist attack. He doesn't have to do it. He does it because he believes in it. Lynn stealing from this man is a slap in the face to all patent holders, to our legal system, to all our other heroes out there and to you.

STR
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top