Cold steel vs CRKT suit and claims made by each

[bld522]

I saw it.

But being an idiot can boil down to necessity. When your EDC must be tested, strength may become the most important thing. I EDC often the Kershaw Knockout in Elmax (Ellie). However, I have concerns about the steel partial frame lock's connection to the aluminum scales and I use it for average cutting tasks exclusively. In another pocket, I back Ellie up with Amy, my old model American Lawman with the steel liners for the tougher tasks the uncertain future may have in store on any given day. I would use a CRKT with metal scales for the lighter cutting, because I like their designs. I can extend that branch... I just wouldn't try to cut it with it.

You and I approach our tools very differently. You select your tool in advance and then apply it to the job. Maybe it's the right tool for the job and maybe it isn't. I look at the job in advance and then select the right tool. There's no guesswork that way. And I never "test" my EDCs. I know their limitations. If they're not right for the job at hand, I simply don't use them. I use something more appropriate instead.

I also don't use folders with lock systems that are "almost as strong as" or "virtually as strong as" fixed-blades. If I need to use something that's as strong as a fixed-blade, I'll use a real fixed-blade. And I'm not talking about a RAO either.

 

[Jonslaught]

I see what you mean, I used to scout carry an ESEE 3 often as my main EDC in years passed until I got back into folders. But its always there and I go back to it on occasion. I position it adjacent to my belt buckle. The two almost meld together and I used to forget it was there. I'd like to try the ESEE 4, the 3 is a little thin.

I didn't mean "test" in the traditional sense, its just my way with words. I meant put it to the test, as in "crunch time". You have pegged me, when EDCing, I pre pick the blade and expect it to do anything I need it to throughout the day to come. Strong folders like CS's seem to fit this mold best. However, if I want to use a less capable blade, I'll always back it with the stronger one (I got the pockets to accommodate, plus its always good to got 1+ deep). I find doing this with a Benchmade or the old CS Ultra Lock models unnecessary because here you got a very strong lock that's fast as all hell to boot. AXIS is my favorite overall lock btw. When I use one of those its usually just the one. I recently got into multitools, that falls under my "code" for sure, the ultimate fore-chosen tool. But that's definitely not here or there.

 

[druid189]

Just curious...do you boycott Spyderco, and only direct people to Benchmade?

I have neither Spyderco nor Benchmade knives and not because of their suits/arguments, whatever.

I'm not really a fan of either manufacturer because I can't find a blade I like for the price I'll pay. But of the two, I've never found a Benchmade I'd carry at all - just don't like the looks of them.

LAWKS and Tri-Ad both work fine if you're not an idiot. But Tri-Ad works better if you are. And whether Cold Steel are jerks or some of the cleverest marketeers on the planet is open to discussion as far as I'm concerned.

I completely agree. The whole notion that a knife becomes a "virtual fixed blade" and therefore "unbreakable" is idiotic. I've broken a few fixed blades in my lifetime but like you said, "if you're not an idiot." I wasn't being an idiot with mine but they were broken because of abuse [meaning, I tasked them to do something outside "acceptable use."] Folding blades, with or without a lock.....fixed....doesn't matter. Abuse it and something bad's probably going to happen.

You and I approach our tools very differently. You select your tool in advance and then apply it to the job. Maybe it's the right tool for the job and maybe it isn't. I look at the job in advance and then select the right tool. There's no guesswork that way. And I never "test" my EDCs. I know their limitations. If they're not right for the job at hand, I simply don't use them. I use something more appropriate instead.

I also don't use folders with lock systems that are "almost as strong as" or "virtually as strong as" fixed-blades. If I need to use something that's as strong as a fixed-blade, I'll use a real fixed-blade. And I'm not talking about a RAO either.

PREACH IT BRUTHA'!!

Seriously though, I've said that hundreds of times [everywhere, not just here].
1. Use the correct tool for the job
2. Don't abuse it and think everything's going to be honky-dory in the end

 

[stabman]

Still?

The lawsuit is gone, and both companies still exist.
Let's talk about something else now.

 

[ursamajor]

You and I approach our tools very differently. You select your tool in advance and then apply it to the job. Maybe it's the right tool for the job and maybe it isn't. I look at the job in advance and then select the right tool. There's no guesswork that way. And I never "test" my EDCs. I know their limitations. If they're not right for the job at hand, I simply don't use them. I use something more appropriate instead.

I also don't use folders with lock systems that are "almost as strong as" or "virtually as strong as" fixed-blades. If I need to use something that's as strong as a fixed-blade, I'll use a real fixed-blade. And I'm not talking about a RAO either.

In a perfect world. But the world is not perfect. And unless you are rolling your entire tool chest around with you, situations can arise, in which you will have to make due with what you have, and possibly even use tools in ways that are not ideal.

 

[Jonslaught]

I completely agree. The whole notion that a knife becomes a "virtual fixed blade" and therefore "unbreakable" is idiotic.

The Benchmade called "Adamas" is named after the Greek word for invincible.

Seriously though, I've said that hundreds of times [everywhere, not just here].
1. Use the correct tool for the job
2. Don't abuse it and think everything's going to be honky-dory in the end

Just to clarify my position, in case I misrepped myself:

1. The point of EDCing a knife is to choose it beforehand is it not? You leave in the morning with your knife for the day to come. You literally can't foresee what may happen during that day, and it would be best to have the most capable blade on your person. Unless we keep our warchest o blades in our vehicles.

2. I personally will not go out of my way to abuse a knife. But its good have one that can handle some extra-elemental tasks, if need be.

 

[Jonslaught]

In a perfect world. But the world is not perfect. And unless you are rolling your entire tool chest around with you, situations can arise, in which you will have to make due with what you have, and possibly even use tools in ways that are not ideal.

Give that kid a silva dolla!

This is just another way of being prepared. Sure you can choose your tool for the job you expect, but realistically I think this way, going strong from the start, is more practical and smart because while we know what can happen, we can never know what will happen.

--------------------------------------

Not to spread the nerd, but its like Goku and Superman. Goku (your chosen tool) trains hard (prepares) for a fight (job). When the fight comes, he gets blindsided by his opponent's strength (unforeseen emergency task) and he gets his ass kicked (struggle). While he may eventually come out on top (serviceable, usable), sometimes he gets killed (failure). Superman (my tool) is the opposite, he is what he is, and is ready for whatever challenge may come from the get-go. While it may not be literally ready for EVERYTHING, that's the mentality.

Not to say my tool is invincible. Unless its an Adamas.

 

[bld522]

Unless we keep our warchest o blades in our vehicles.

We have a winner! :thumbup: But it's not a war chest, really. It's a BoB.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I work in an office. I could get by very easily with my Micra and a pair of ordinary office shears. I carry lightweight EDCs even though I rarely use them because I like knives. I live in a seismically active area and I keep my serious tools and supplies within easy striking distance at all times. I don't stress my knives because I don't need to nor do I carry more knife than I require in order to prove anything to myself or anyone else. And I never keep my knives clipped to my pocket. Doing that is an invitation to disaster in more ways than one. YMMV.

Oh, and just for the record . . . antics and lawsuits aside . . . Cold Steel the knife company is no joke. They make what is arguably the best bang-for-the-buck utility/survival fixed-blade knife on the planet. If we're going to test Extrema Ratio's "real fixed blade" RAO against an honest-to-God Cold Steel fixed blade, I'd say test it against a 36M. Then we'll see whose 4-inch "real fixed blade" is the real deal.

And one more thing. There's no question in my mind that Andrew Demko makes the strongest, unsupported folder lock in existence. I say we all just give it up for Andrew and move on to testing other attributes of Cold Steel folders that they're likely to excel at. Can I get a hell-yeah?

 

[druid189]

Just to clarify my position, in case I misrepped myself:

1. The point of EDCing a knife is to choose it beforehand is it not? You leave in the morning with your knife for the day to come. You literally can't foresee what may happen during that day, and it would be best to have the most capable blade on your person. Unless we keep our warchest o blades in our vehicles.

2. I personally will not go out of my way to abuse a knife. But its good have one that can handle some extra-elemental tasks, if need be.

No no, I understood what you meant earlier. My whole "EDC a blade" thing though is that I carry a knife to cut something with. That's pretty much it. For almost 20 years I carried a Buck Crosslock Deputy, only replacing it this year with that little KaBar Dozier folder. I never used the second belt cutter "prybar" blade to pry anything - not in 20 years. The seat belt cutter sure...but not as a pry bar proper.

Mind you, PA State Law has no outlandish knife restrictions to contend with. Certain jurisdictions do [Philly] but basically all that's regulated are swords, switchblades and double edged daggers. There's no blade length limit, no regulations on open/concealed carry, no issue with folding vs fixed......and still, the biggest/sturdiest folding knife I've carried daily was the Deputy.

Now if I go out in the woods, Hell yeah I'm taking the closest thing I can find to a "one tool option" as I can [even though none really exists]. For years it was the CS Trail Master Bowie, paired with a smaller fixed blade but I STILL carried a folder.

I just have a very determined "right tool for the job" mentality....that's all.

 

[Fire_Brand]

Been awhile since I've checked back here! It is pretty funny that Cold Steel deleted the first thread... Guess it didn't look to good being the most viewed thread on their own subforum...

I do find this statement kind of ironic:

Even if I disagree with a fellow knife lover, I'm still going to buy him a beer and talk.

I realize this is the moderator talking, but his opinion clearly doesn't reflect the company (unless they don't consider the people of CRKT fellow knife lovers). "We'll buy you a beer, talk and then sue you for everything we can!"

Like others have mentioned this has been pretty much beaten to death, but since the last thread got deleted I think a few things still need to be visible here just for total transparency.

The first is the full case, because despite Cold Steel saying they can't share anymore, it really seems more like they just don't want to considering this is publicly available. Here is the full case for those interested: http://www.scribd.com/doc/268364363/Cold-Steel-v-CRKT#scribd

It is quite long so I'll leave one of the more fun parts below:

Page 10 Prayer #5:
That Cold Steel recover three times the defendants profits as a result of the defendants wrongful actions or three times Cold Steel's damages, whichever is greater; And also court costs, attorney fees, "Cold Steel be awarded exemplary damages for the defendants willful and intentional acts", and "That Cold Steel recover such further relief to which it may be entitled."

To summarize my complaints from the previous thread, first how do you define a "fixed blade" the terminology there is already up for interpretation because I can go buy a pack of 50 plastic fixed blades at the dollar store for my next work picnic. The assertion by CS that to even carry the name fixed blade it must be indestructible is laughable. They are adding their own stipulations and rules where they don't exist. Furthermore this is even preceded by "virtual" because it is after all, a folding knife. Does it fold? if yes, it is a folding knife. No? It is a fixed blade. This has no assertion of strength.

Next the self-righteous "cold steel is looking out for the safety of our customers because we care." is laughable. The perfect example that makes this argument crumble is the finger filleting pocket bushman. Search it yourself to see just how many people have inadvertently yanked this blade through their fingers with pretty gross results. Has cold steel pulled this from shelves because of their undying commitment to protect our fingers? No, but they added a warning label! :thumbup:

Either way, it is a bit of a moot point now since it sounds like the case has been thrown out (I'll try to hide my utter shock). But I think people need some sort of lasting reminder that yes, Cold Steel engaged in this lawsuit with this argument and this intention. Make of it what you will.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Been awhile since I've checked back here! It is pretty funny that Cold Steel deleted the first thread... Guess it didn't look to good being the most viewed thread on their own subforum...

I do find this statement kind of ironic:



I realize this is the moderator talking, but his opinion clearly doesn't reflect the company (unless they don't consider the people of CRKT fellow knife lovers). "We'll buy you a beer, talk and then sue you for everything we can!"

Like others have mentioned this has been pretty much beaten to death, but since the last thread got deleted I think a few things still need to be visible here just for total transparency.

The first is the full case, because despite Cold Steel saying they can't share anymore, it really seems more like they just don't want to considering this is publicly available. Here is the full case for those interested: http://www.scribd.com/doc/268364363/Cold-Steel-v-CRKT#scribd

It is quite long so I'll leave one of the more fun parts below:

Page 10 Prayer #5:
That Cold Steel recover three times the defendants profits as a result of the defendants wrongful actions or three times Cold Steel's damages, whichever is greater; And also court costs, attorney fees, "Cold Steel be awarded exemplary damages for the defendants willful and intentional acts", and "That Cold Steel recover such further relief to which it may be entitled."

To summarize my complaints from the previous thread, first how do you define a "fixed blade" the terminology there is already up for interpretation because I can go buy a pack of 50 plastic fixed blades at the dollar store for my next work picnic. The assertion by CS that to even carry the name fixed blade it must be indestructible is laughable. They are adding their own stipulations and rules where they don't exist. Furthermore this is even preceded by "virtual" because it is after all, a folding knife. Does it fold? if yes, it is a folding knife. No? It is a fixed blade. This has no assertion of strength.

Next the self-righteous "cold steel is looking out for the safety of our customers because we care." is laughable. The perfect example that makes this argument crumble is the finger filleting pocket bushman. Search it yourself to see just how many people have inadvertently yanked this blade through their fingers with pretty gross results. Has cold steel pulled this from shelves because of their undying commitment to protect our fingers? No, but they added a warning label! :thumbup:

Either way, it is a bit of a moot point now since it sounds like the case has been thrown out (I'll try to hide my utter shock). But I think people need some sort of lasting reminder that yes, Cold Steel engaged in this lawsuit with this argument and this intention. Make of it what you will.

I'm delighted we have you to come in and remind us on the 6 page 100+ post thread (only one of three) on the subject.

 

[bld522]

Yep. I'm over it too. Heck, I even managed to lift my head up out of it long enough to go buy a new knife. I think I'm past the point of no return.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I've never cut myself on my Pocket Bushman, my Ti-Lite and my Espada XL yes, but not the Pocket Bushman. I also don't recall Cold Steel ever saying that you couldn't cut yourself on a knife.

As for the CRKT/Cold Steel thing. On a Tri-Ad Cold Steel knife under load the blade will break before the lock will. On a CRKT knife with the LAWKS the lock will break before the blade does. If lock strength is of concern for a knife user then Cold Steel is the preferred option.

 

[Jonslaught]

Ok truth time. Although it is the safest lock when its fully deployed, my knives with the Tri-Ad lock haves cut me more than any other knife. When I first experienced it, the way it sprang closed.

I'm sorry but I couldn't hold it in any longer!

Though I admit totally my fault, poor finger positioning when doing a one handed closure. But man what a cut that Voyager XL Tanto gave me, the blood that squirted from my finger created a 7 inch line on my wall (still there lol). I stopped the bleeding in under a minute tho, and created an impromptu splint out of a piece of wood I ripped out of the wall (the wood used to secure a carpet) and toilet paper. Just now getting full feeling back in my finger tip. Memories.

 

[bld522]

If lock strength is of concern for a knife user then Cold Steel is the preferred option.

If lock strength is of concern for a knife user, the user needs to ask themselves how much lock strength they require. If the only thing that will do is a folder whose blade will break before the lock fails, the user needs to ask themselves whether they should be using a folder at all. Or are you suggesting that fixed-blade knives are now irrelevant because folders can be made with locks so strong that their blades will break before their locks fail?

 

[Jonslaught]

If lock strength is of concern for a knife user, the user needs to ask themselves how much lock strength they require. If the only thing that will do is a folder whose blade will break before the lock fails, the user needs to ask themselves whether they should be using a folder at all. Or are you suggesting that fixed-blade knives are now irrelevant because folders can be made with locks so strong that their blades will break before their locks fail?

Well folding knives are more compact. That's the point of their existence. A folder can't replace a fixed blade, unless something more concealable like a folder is necessary. Though Tri-Ad and fixed blades do have one thing in common, the blade will definitely fail before the lock does. (trying on the wink, I fear it does not suit me) (there we go, green smile, reminds me of the Joker)

I wouldn't take the aforementioned Voyager XL Tanto over the AK47 Field (Same blade length) unless I'm in an area that doesn't allow open carry or if it will draw unwanted attention to myself. I can go scout carry, yes. Problem solved.

I think this may have been a joke question, considering no one can ever think that, but I'd figure I'd plug the AK47 Field in a comment, someone has to, I have yet to see a review on this tank anywhere on the internet. Named mine "Olivia" for the olive drab G-10 haha.

Tri-Ad is overkill, but overkill is better than... under... kill?

 

[ursamajor]

Well folding knives are more compact. That's the point of their existence. A folder can't replace a fixed blade, unless something more concealable like a folder is necessary. Though Tri-Ad and fixed blades do have one thing in common, the blade will definitely fail before the lock does. (trying on the wink, I fear it does not suit me) (there we go, green smile, reminds me of the Joker)

I wouldn't take the aforementioned Voyager XL Tanto over the AK47 Field (Same blade length) unless I'm in an area that doesn't allow open carry or if it will draw unwanted attention to myself. I can go scout carry, yes. Problem solved.

I think this may have been a joke question, considering no one can ever think that, but I'd figure I'd plug the AK47 Field in a comment, someone has to, I have yet to see a review on this tank anywhere on the internet. Named mine "Olivia" for the olive drab G-10 haha.

Tri-Ad is overkill, but overkill is better than... under... kill?

We need a review. Maybe someday we will see a shooutout against a BK-2, and ESEE 5.

 

[Jonslaught]

Two blades I often compare it to. I think it outshines those two in form. I'd even throw the BK 16 in the ring. Did u know at 11oz its exactly 5 ounces heavier than the BK16 and 5 ounces lighter than the BK2/ESEE 5? I think its perfect. There's a review.

CRKT/CS LAWSUIT!! (just to stay on topic)

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Tri-Ad is overkill, but overkill is better than... under... kill?

There's no kill like overkill.

 

[bld522]

And no whelm like overwhelm.