Collaborations.....

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
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Been thinking about custom collaborations lately.

Some make sense to me....Lee Williams is as known for his carved handles, maybe as much or more than his knives. Galyean is known for his unique knives...put that together, and it is ++, highly desireable.

Same as Fogg/Sayen=Kemal, Fogg/Kelso, Louis Mills/Kelso, maybe even Ralph/Revishvili(nabbed from Gollnick):



To my mind and experience...this WAY adds value, desireability and that elusive "extra" something that is not done in factory knives.

The ABS MS/ABS MS or tactical stock removal/tactical stock removal knives that I have seen, for the most part, are LESS desireable than it being done by the "hotter" maker by himself....

as an example of both.....the BladeForums Bowie....Jerry forged the blade, Dan ground it, Russ finished it out, and Burt made the sheath....each did the thing that they do best, and the knife is better for it, encompassing wonderful flow, and quite different than something done by any ONE of them.

This example of a "collaboration" had Shane Taylor making the steel, and Mel Pardue making the knife...I am scratching my head as to why it would be a "more" desireable piece than one where Mel made the damascus himself(he does a very nice job) or one that Shane made by himself: Pic lifted from Miami Nice Knife:


What do you guys think?

Am I making sense?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steven, if my mind serves me right that knife with shanes steel in it was a series of knives with steel from different MS's used in each one in the series.

I do agree with you on how some of the collabarations just don't seem to live up to the standards of what we have come to expect from each of the makers individually. But what if.......................say a Hancock and Fuegen collaboration? Dean and Fisk? Williams and Colter? i think that we could see some amazeing stuff.
 
Erik Fritz said:
Steven, if my mind serves me right that knife with shanes steel in it was a series of knives with steel from different MS's used in each one in the series.

I do agree with you on how some of the collabarations just don't seem to live up to the standards of what we have come to expect from each of the makers individually. But what if.......................say a Hancock and Fuegen collaboration? Dean and Fisk? Williams and Colter? i think that we could see some amazeing stuff.
Click to expand...

You are correct on that, Erik....BUT all of the knives produced LOOKED like regular Pardue knives, with MS steel....where is the coolness factor in that, unless you, as the collector, are going to attempt to snag all of them...in which case, why wouldn't you pick the steel, and order directly from Mel?

1. Hancock and Fuegen?...not necessarily...unless Tim did some steel that had never been seen before from him, like a 7 bar multi...that would make real sense.

2. Dean and Fisk....I'm sorry, what could Harvey offer that Jerry cannot?...and this is TOTALLY not an insult....but when Jerry is on....no other smith can really touch him...makes a collaboration a bit of a non-starter.

3. Which Williams? Lee? Because that might work, IF Lee designed the knife, and Wade built the steel around the design.

Just my thoughts.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Been thinking about custom collaborations lately.

Some make sense to me....Lee Williams is as known for his carved handles, maybe as much or more than his knives. Galyean is known for his unique knives...put that together, and it is ++, highly desireable.

Same as Fogg/Sayen=Kemal, Fogg/Kelso, Louis Mills/Kelso, maybe even Ralph/Revishvili(nabbed from Gollnick):


To my mind and experience...this WAY adds value, desireability and that elusive "extra" something that is not done in factory knives.

as an example of both.....the BladeForums Bowie....Jerry forged the blade, Dan ground it, Russ finished it out, and Burt made the sheath....each did the thing that they do best, and the knife is better for it, encompassing wonderful flow, and quite different than something done by any ONE of them.

What do you guys think?

Am I making sense?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Perhaps a "collaboration" does not have to make sence in that each maker has to add a skill that the other maker could not, thus making the collaboration "special" or a better piece as a whole.

Perhaps, just that the two makers got together to share their skill, artistry and fellowship for their craft is in itself enough to make the collaboration "special" and "desirable".
 
Kevin Jones said:
Perhaps a "collaboration" does not have to make sence in that each maker has to add a skill that the other maker could not, thus making the collaboration "special" or a better piece as a whole.

Perhaps, just that the two makers got together to share their skill, artistry and fellowship for their craft is in itself enough to make the collaboration "special" and "desirable".
Click to expand...

That, Kevin, would show the difference between "piece, maker, price" and "maker, piece, price" wouldn't it?

To MAKE the collaboration piece?....sure.....but the make it BETTER or more DESIREABLE....no, it is not enough.

We have a fundamental and non compatible view in this approach.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I'm not sure if this collaboration between John Fitch and Jim Crowell has any more value than a knife made solo by either one. I know and like both of those guys and their knives. I don't know why they decided to collaborate but clearly they are friends with eachother and friends like to do stuff together sometimes. In this case John did the blade and Jim did the handle.

I think the collaboration lends a certain uniqueness to this knife but whether that translates into value (perceived or real) I can't say. For me this knife is also a memento of a particularly fine time I had at the Batson Bladesmithing Symposium at Tannehill State Park in beautiful northern Alabama several years ago and as such it has sentimental value to me.

If 5-6 of those reading this would like to reply publicly in this thread stating the maximum dollar amount they would be willing to pay (retail) for this knife today (excluding the sheath), I will reveal what I actually paid.

Remember though, you're not guessing what I paid, you're stating what you would pay IF you decided, as I did, to purchase the knife. In other words, it's irrelevant whether you like or don't like, would or wouldn't purchase or whatever. It's about becoming astute in judging the fair market value of a certain knife in today's market.

orig.jpg
 
Kohai999 said:
That, Kevin, would show the difference between "piece, maker, price" and "maker, piece, price" wouldn't it?

To MAKE the collaboration piece?....sure.....but the make it BETTER or more DESIREABLE....no, it is not enough.

We have a fundamental and non compatible view in this approach.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

No, not necessarily as that's not necessarily my view. Just playing devils advocate here as some may just appreciate collaborations because they are such. And that's OK.
I don't particularly care for Fogg collaborations. Different strokes for different folks.

Here's an older Fisk/Neely collaboration from one of Jerry's old sales brochures.
FiskCatalog12.jpg
 
HTMD said:
I'm not sure if this collaboration between John Fitch and Jim Crowell has any more value than a knife made solo by either one. I know and like both of those guys and their knives. I don't know why they decided to collaborate but clearly they are friends with eachother and friends like to do stuff together sometimes. In this case John did the blade and Jim did the handle.

I think the collaboration lends a certain uniqueness to this knife but whether that translates into value (perceived or real) I can't say. For me this knife is also a memento of a particularly fine time I had at the Batson Bladesmithing Symposium at Tannehill State Park in beautiful northern Alabama several years ago and as such it has sentimental value to me.

If 5-6 of those reading this would like to reply publicly in this thread stating the maximum dollar amount they would be willing to pay (retail) for this knife today (excluding the sheath), I will reveal what I actually paid.

Remember though, you're not guessing what I paid, you're stating what you would pay IF you decided, as I did, to purchase the knife. In other words, it's irrelevant whether you like or don't like, would or wouldn't purchase or whatever. It's about becoming astute in judging the fair market value of a certain knife in today's market.

orig.jpg
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that's about a 13" Bowie.
IMO today's market, dealer retail value equals about $1250.00.
 
$600.00, I'll add $100.00 for the Rowe sheath

I find the Midas Bowie repellant.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
$600.00

I find the Midas Bowie repellant.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

One may like it or not, however it demonstrates great skill by two top knifemakers.
I don't think that can be challenged?

Personally, I would pay about $600 too, however I believe the retail price was asked for.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I'm assuming that's about a 13" Bowie.
IMO today's market value equals about $1250.00.
Click to expand...

A Crowell bowie of these dimensions and materials might command that price. I don't believe a similar Fitch bowie would. I would say $1k tops and I personally wouldn't go that quite that high.

No disrespect intended to the makers or Buddy - I like both of these guys and I quite like this knife. But since an estimate was asked for, an estimate has been provided.

But I would also say that the value of a collaboration can't be measured purely in dollars. While that is arguably the only objective measure, the purchase of custom knives is not largely driven by objectivity.

Roger
 
Kevin Jones said:
One may like it or not, however it demonstrates great skill by two top knifemakers.
I don't think that can be challenged?
Click to expand...

We are not talking about demonstrating great skill, Kevin....I am saying that in order for a collaboration to make sense, it should be bringing out something that is greater than the two or more individual parts.

If a maker wants to engage in a mutual love-fest with a fellow maker, and do a collaboration...and the end result is something like the Midas Bowie...than it is not worth a premium or a wanted knife by me...it is not better than a singular knife by Jerry in this case....he can make a butt ugly 1/2 alligator/1/2horse pommel bowie with bark ivory all by himself, and that is STILL better than the Midas Bowie.

If that was a Crowell bowie, by itself, I would be happy to pay $1,000

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
We are not talking about demonstrating great skill, Kevin....I am saying that in order for a collaboration to make sense, it should be bringing out something that is greater than the two or more individual parts.

If a maker wants to engage in a mutual love-fest with a fellow maker, and do a collaboration...and the end result is something like the Midas Bowie...than it is not worth a premium or a wanted knife by me...it is not better than a singular knife by Jerry in this case....he can make a butt ugly 1/2 alligator/1/2horse pommel bowie with bark ivory all by himself, and that is STILL better than the Midas Bowie.

If that was a Crowell bowie, by itself, I would be happy to pay $1,000

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

STeven, I haven't disagreed with you once in this thread. I didn't say I liked or disliked the Midas Bowie. Just that it was a collaboration and it demonstrated a great deal of skill by two makers. Just looking at the subject of your thread from all angles.
The Midas Bowie did just recently sell quite quickly to a collector in China however.
 
Kevin Jones said:
STeven, I haven't disagreed with you once in this thread. I didn't say I liked or disliked the Midas Bowie. Just that it was a collaboration and it demonstrated a great deal of skill by two makers. Just looking at the subject of your thread from all angles.
The Midas Bowie did just recently sell quite quickly to a collector in China however.
Click to expand...

No, you are right Kevin, you have not taken a position.

How educated and how much taste does the collector from China have? You cannot buy taste, you know?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
RogerP said:
A Crowell bowie of these dimensions and materials might command that price. I don't believe a similar Fitch bowie would. I would say $1k tops and I personally wouldn't go that quite that high.

No disrespect intended to the makers or Buddy - I like both of these guys and I quite like this knife. But since an estimate was asked for, an estimate has been provided.

But I would also say that the value of a collaboration can't be measured purely in dollars. While that is arguably the only objective measure, the purchase of custom knives is not largely driven by objectivity.

Roger
Click to expand...

No disrespect to Buddy or makers by me either.
I agree Roger, $1000 would be a reasonable market price, however believe that most dealers would "list it" at retail for closer to the $1250.
 
Steven, I can see your point about some collabs that leave one saying "Eh..." rather than thinking it was the best combination since chocolate and peanut butter (or whatever one's favorite pairing may be). But I kind of get the sense that it annoys you that makers would collaborate on something and not come up with a great end result from their combined talents, that maybe you think they shouldn't waste the time. Do you feel that way or am I off base in my interpretation?

While all collaborations will not result in something "greater than the two or more individual parts" as you said earlier, I would tend to think, or perhaps it's just hope, that two makers would not get together with the idea of "Let's make an average knife with your blade and my handle." Tim G. and Lee Williams could have made a knife together that wasn't going to light people's worlds on fire. Extremely unlikely given their talents and current profiles, but possible. The fact that they hit on something really cool working together hopefully gives other folks the inspiration to try. They may not all be home runs, but if makers lose a potential spark to collaborate because they're afraid of not pleasing everyone then we as collectors will lose out as well in the long run.
 
I have seen other knives by this pair and think this one would probably retail for $1300.00 to $1400.00. I like it, but wouldn't pay more than $900.

The reason is that when I compare what is available that is as good or better, I just don't see this knife being worth any more than that.
 
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