Collaborations.....

[ptgdvc]

Some dealers/retailers have unusual ideas about mark ups, so I would leave it to them to establish a "retail' price.

I would value the knife between $850-$950.
Which in English means that I would feel comfortable buying the knife at $800, and think that on a good day it could sell for $1,000. My valuation is probably influenced to the high side by the fact that I really like the knife.

I love Jim Crowell's work and like the man personally. John Fitch has simply amazing skills. But the fact of the matter is that neither one has been helping themselves, or their collectors, in the market place in recent years. I suspect that you paid between $1,100-$1,200 for the knife.

Even if you start with two makers that are considred very comparable in skill, inevitably on a collaboration, one of the two makers will eventually be held in higher regard and his work will become more valuable.

A collaboration will never command the same price as a sole authorship piece by the better of the two makers. Ask me how I know? Take a look at the Newton/Fitch that I am offering currently in the FOR SALE section of this forum. I believe that if Ron was the sole maker, that the knife would sell rather easily in the $1,900-$2,000 range. As you can see no one has pulled the trigger at the $1,525 level. Even though, the knife is almost completely a Newton. Rightly or wrongly, Fitch's name is not helping. It is hurting the value. There was a time a couple of years ago, when Fitch was on fire with demand, that his name actually helped the value of the knife. Obviously the knife has not changed physically so any change has been in the markets perception of value. Just one man's opinion.

 

[HTMD]

Rightly or wrongly, Fitch's name is not helping. It is hurting the value. There was a time a couple of years ago, when Fitch was on fire with demand, that his name actually helped the value of the knife.

Of all the theoretical reasons why this collaboration, and others in general, might lose financial value over time, this may be the the real reason. If John Fitch doesn't return to his prior level of activity at shows, hammer-ins and such, nobody will know his name or anything about him. If he does come back, and is very successful, then the opposite could happen to this knife's value.

Not to fault John. My understanding is that for personal and family reasons he couldn't continue to be away from home so much, nor put as much time into his knife business. Unless, do ya think, was John criticized so harshly in the forums (and he was - please don't ressurect that thread - it was painful) that his business was damaged? [from the editor thread, see: "to ruin that person's livleihood by libeling his or her work."] I'm not suggesting the editor was referring specifically to John, I have no idea to whom the editor might be referring.

*OK - Get on with it already, what about the money!
I paid $1,000 for it. Wrote out a check to each of them for $500. We were standing right there in the dirt, next to John's pick-up. I could've offered less or bargained a little, but I chose not to. So, you guys are smart. You all zero'd right in on it. Maybe we should collaborate like this more often and see if we can let a little air out of the balloon. Prices for the better handmade custom offerings have seemed high to me for a while now.

 

[Kohai999]

If John Fitch doesn't return to his prior level of activity at shows, hammer-ins and such, nobody will know his name or anything about him. If he does come back, and is very successful, then the opposite could happen to this knife's value........Not to fault John. My understanding is that for personal and family reasons he couldn't continue to be away from home so much, nor put as much time into his knife business. Unless, do ya think, was John criticized so harshly in the forums (and he was - please don't ressurect that thread - it was painful) that his business was damaged? [from the editor thread, see: "to ruin that person's livleihood by libeling his or her work."] I'm not suggesting the editor was referring specifically to John, I have no idea to whom the editor might be referring.

1. Buddy...you know I like you....now read this slowly....John Fitch hurt his OWN reputation on his OWN. We just commiserated on HOW he hurt his own reputation. You found it painful.....I found it necessary.

2. You will be seeing more threads like that over time as makers hurt their OWN reputations by not living up to their end of the bargain. I don't take ANY pleasure in it, it can be painful, but not as painful as getting burned or losing collectors because of unscrupulous or dishonest practices on the part of the maker. The community has been bent on protecting the maker, rather than the collector, which is misguided from where I sit.

3. I don't believe you, when you say that you don't know to whom Ms. Hughes was referring. If you don't, it is because you don't want to know. YOU speak for ALL collectors of forged blades with your column in the American Bladesmith.....or don't you?

4. It is your money, if you feel you got fair value....more power to you. It is a lovely knife.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Joss]

I have several collaboration pieces, principally with Don Fogg. In all those cases, the contributors brought something incredibly different to the table.

Outside of this, I stay away from collaborations. I have a several issues with them:

1) A maker cannot feel the same level of ownership about a collaboration. If they are absolutely iron willed, they may put the same level of work and inspiration they would in a full ownership. I know I wouldn't able to do it, so I suspect quite a few makers cannot either.

2) There's a tendancy to "milk" the better name of the two. This is a well known thing in popular publishing. Clive Cussler's "Dirk Pitt" adventures are really popular, and now you have a spin-off "NUMA files "written "by Clive Cussler with so-and-so". Those are obviously written by so-and-so (generally quite poorly), with Clive Cussler just putting his stamp of approval on the final product. There are knife collaborations that pair a very well known maker with a 2nd or 3rd tier one. Then dealers often attempt to sell the final product as if made largely by the 1st tier maker. I find those confusing to say the least, and IMHO, makers who do this don't realize how much they are hurting their reputation. For an example go to classicgunsandknives.com (or other sites quite frankly) and look under whose name the C2O's are listed (hint - it's not under "Obenauf"). In addition, even if the knife is correctly represented, it's impossible to know who put what % of the work in the knife. (1)

As a side note, I wonder how well the ABS Board knives do in the aftermarket. I suspect that with Moran sadly gone, they're going to loose a lot of their appeal.

PS: (1) I actually think that the Carsons and Mike Obenauf are being first class in clearly signing their knives C2O, but dealers are not as scrupulous and this is hurting Carson owners IMHO.

 

[HTMD]

1. Buddy...you know I like you....

This is all that matters. Whatever else you said, I forgive you.

I don't lie, so you owe me one for carelessly raising a suspicion. I like you too, but you still owe me one.

All foolishness aside, I regret that STeven saw my post before I got in to edit it. Oh well...

Back on topic! This has been a very interesting discussion and I hope it continues. How about let's take a shot at the MS dagger collaboration. Someone go first.

 

[Kohai999]

I don't lie, so you owe me one for carelessly raising a suspicion. I like you too, but you still owe me one.

Back on topic! This has been a very interesting discussion and I hope it continues. How about let's take a shot at the MS dagger collaboration. Someone go first.

I was not being careless. That is how I felt. You are a straight shooter, and I am too. We are not always going to agree...the facts will out...but this is one of those instances where you know the facts, and I don't. I did not mean to impugne you...but we all know that there is more to the ABS than surface Southern gentility, and home baked cookies, right?

As far as the MS dagger collab, you said that you sniped it, so my guess is between $1,750 and $2,000. For that price, it would be fantastic value.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Joss]

as an example of both.....the BladeForums Bowie....Jerry forged the blade, Dan ground it, Russ finished it out, and Burt made the sheath....each did the thing that they do best, and the knife is better for it, encompassing wonderful flow, and quite different than something done by any ONE of them.

I don't really agree with that. The key collaborative input was design - the design is what makes the knife completely different from what it would have been otherwise. Would the knife have been less attactive had it had the same design but been made entirely by Jerry, Dan, or Burt? I think not.

 

[Bastid]

Yup that dagger of Buddy's was and still is a fantastic value!

 

[Kohai999]

I don't really agree with that. The key collaborative input was design - the design is what makes the knife completely different from what it would have been otherwise. Would the knife have been less attactive had it had the same design but been made entirely by Jerry, Dan, or Burt? I think not.

It wouldn't have turned out the same, Joss. For instance, that rolling plunge grind is sort of unique to Dan Farr, and the guard flow is sort of unique to Russ Andrews.

I own 5 Burt Foster knives, and NONE of them look like the BFB.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Stephen F]

I don't really agree with that. The key collaborative input was design - the design is what makes the knife completely different from what it would have been otherwise. Would the knife have been less attactive had it had the same design but been made entirely by Jerry, Dan, or Burt? I think not.

Another perspective could be that the work of those makers (plus Russ) has influenced tastes and preferences to the extent that indirectly they influenced the collaborative design process!

Stephen

 

[Stephen F]

John needs to let more people know just how talented he is ....

 

[Joss]

Stephen - amazing piece. Must have been expensive, that incuse gold $5 Indian isn't cheap, even in common grades. Me likes!

 

[Joss]

It wouldn't have turned out the same, Joss. For instance, that rolling plunge grind is sort of unique to Dan Farr, and the guard flow is sort of unique to Russ Andrews.

I own 5 Burt Foster knives, and NONE of them look like the BFB.

Is the question "different" or is it "better / more desireable"? One argument that was made (rightly IMHO) above was that a collab will never be worth as much as a sole authorship from the better name - why wouldn't that apply here?

 

[Kohai999]

Is the question "different" or is it "better / more desireable"? One argument that was made (rightly IMHO) above was that a collab will never be worth as much as a sole authorship from the better name - why wouldn't that apply here?

I AM NOT saying that this piece would be more valuable than one by Jerry, sole authorship. FWIW, I valuate it at between $1,250 and $1,750, which is far below what Jerry gets, a bit less than what Burt gets, and more than Russ or Dan get.

It is however VERY desireable for execution reasons. It is just a kick ass knife...have you ever seen Jerry Fisk produce one even similar to that?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Stephen F]

Stephen - amazing piece. Must have been expensive, that incuse gold $5 Indian isn't cheap, even in common grades. Me likes!

Unfortunately its not mine ...sorely wish it was (if the owner is reading )

Stephen

 

[Joss]

I AM NOT saying that this piece would be more valuable than one by Jerry, sole authorship. FWIW, I valuate it at between $1,250 and $1,750, which is far below what Jerry gets, a bit less than what Burt gets, and more than Russ or Dan get.

It is however VERY desireable for execution reasons. It is just a kick ass knife...have you ever seen Jerry Fisk produce one even similar to that?

No, but I have seen him make knives that were just as kickass or more, in a different way, see the micro-show thread(s) for examples. Plus, let's not forget that 90% of the knife's unique personality is in the design. If you had given Jerry the design (and if he had accepted to make a knife to spec) amd the same material (that stag is sweet), he would have made a knife that would have been just as kickass, and if true to the design very similar, except in some details.

 

[Stephen F]

FWIW, I valuate it at between $1,250 and $1,750, .........

I think in the right circumstances, if it makes it onto the aftermarket, it will fetch more than that ....... I don't think this will follow the normal collaboration rules

But as a sole authorship piece with out the providence your valuation is around right depending on the maker!

 

[Kohai999]

No, but I have seen him make knives that were just as kickass or more, in a different way, see the micro-show thread(s) for examples.

Of the examples shown, I only found the Persian to be equally, but differently, kick ass.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Joss]

Of the examples shown, I only found the Persian to be equally, but differently, kick ass.

So? My point stands, especially given the constraints of the design and materials.

 

[ptgdvc]

I think $1,750 is in the ballpark.

Who ever ends up with it, if you want to sell it, I am interested.

P