Collectors Viewpoint on Custom Knifemakers Collaborating with Knife Companies

I agree with most of the posters. I all too frequently buy $800 plus knives (a disease). Let me use one example. People still desire Hinderer mid-techs despite his agreement with ZT on the 0560's. But even more amazing, his custom XM's have gone through the roof in price.

So if you partner with a reliable company like the ones mentioned above (KAI, BM, Kabar, Spyderco), it will "get your name out" and possibly stimulate interest in your customs. Just keep your customs slightly different from the partnered knives, and keep your customs relatively rare (and thus more coveted).

Best of luck.
 
Personally I think there is nothing wrong with collaborations. I think they help get your name out there and increase the pool of potential "custom knife" customers.

Like Lorien I was interested in knives when I was much younger then sort of put that aside for a while. When I got back into it, I was interested in Benchmades Crawford and Emerson collaborations. Years later I owned and still own some Crawford and Emerson knives. Their collaborations and their names helped introduce me to the world of handmade knives.
 
Great topic mike. I have a few of your BM collaborations, they were actually my introduction to yu as a designer. I think collaborations are a great way to get custom makers introduced to the masses.......as long as the quality is right.

If you have control to approve the final craftsmanship of the collaboration i think all is good. A previous post called out the boker plus line, and I would have to agree they have been hit or miss regarding quality. At any rate i dont think the blame for that rests on the collaborator, but the manufacturer...as it should.

basically I would buy your work as a custom (and have, but I cant quite afford your latest ones:-) or a collaboration...and the collaboration allows me to buy a design from you i couldn't otherwise afford (love my BM 420 resistor).

much respect from Wisconsin
 
I don't see how you can go wrong teaming up with Ka-Bar. USA made, it's a no-brainer! :D
 
Collaboration quality?

Much like an author has some influence, but not final control, over the movie production of their book, it is still a HUGE testament to the popularity of the original creator.

You can only hope for so much. However, the pedestal gets a step taller. :D

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
Collaboration quality?

Much like an author has some influence, but not final control, over the movie production of their book, it is still a HUGE testament to the popularity of the original creator.
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A good analogy. To take it further: should the author sell the rights for his book to Dreamworks, or to Ed Wood (or his modern-day incarnation)?

That decision alone will play a huge part in determining the potential quality of the final product.
 
...and defines the term 'selling out'
 
The flip side of this: Ed Halligan 'sold out' his K.I.S.S. folder to CRKT in 1999. When I talked to him in 2002, he allowed he was getting a royalty of $1 per knife. At the time they'd sold 600,000 units.

Harsh? Harsh for everyone but him. :)

Coop
 
"Selling out"...what's it to you? Why is putting food on the table and shoes on your kids "selling out?"

In addition, what may look like "selling out" may just be one poor man's business mistake. There have been "sharks" in the cutlery business for hundreds of years.
 
Mike, the fact that you signed up with Ka-Bar and then come here asking about it, comes across almost as buyers remorse. But, knowing that your marketing/business skill has put you where you are and your commitment to quality kept you there, I think you'll be just fine. Now if there ever came a time that the Snody line of CutCo (owned by Ka-Bar) became available, I might reconsider the brand :p

Keep doing what you do, don't fret over what people will think of you, its never bothered you before! Personally, I think a certain gap does need to exist between a production knife and a custom, otherwise it may end up cannibalizing the name. Take the Folts Minimalist by CRKT, sure you can buy one for $20 and it has real micarta scales, is the same design, but the steel is an underperformer. The custom ones are fitted much nicer and you get really good steel for 5-6x the price. Sure this may be an extreme example of cost reduction by mass production, but I know a lot of people with real Folts knives because of the CRKT version.


Much respect!

-X
 
SharpByCoop said:
The flip side of this: Ed Halligan 'sold out' his K.I.S.S. folder to CRKT in 1999. When I talked to him in 2002, he allowed he was getting a royalty of $1 per knife. At the time they'd sold 600,000 units.

Harsh? Harsh for everyone but him. :)

Coop
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I wonder how Ed Halligan views himself; inventor, craftsman, Artist...
That self awareness plays as much a role in whether the definition of 'sell out' applies or not, imo.
I'm personally not interested in applying that label because I just don't care, as it's none of my business.
But since the OP mentions the topic of 'selling out', it might be helpful to try and determine what that means and more importantly, how it applies.
 
fast14riot said:
Mike, the fact that you signed up with Ka-Bar and then come here asking about it, comes across almost as buyers remorse. But, knowing that your marketing/business skill has put you where you are and your commitment to quality kept you there, I think you'll be just fine. Now if there ever came a time that the Snody line of CutCo (owned by Ka-Bar) became available, I might reconsider the brand :p

Keep doing what you do, don't fret over what people will think of you, its never bothered you before! Personally, I think a certain gap does need to exist between a production knife and a custom, otherwise it may end up cannibalizing the name. Take the Folts Minimalist by CRKT, sure you can buy one for $20 and it has real micarta scales, is the same design, but the steel is an underperformer. The custom ones are fitted much nicer and you get really good steel for 5-6x the price. Sure this may be an extreme example of cost reduction by mass production, but I know a lot of people with real Folts knives because of the CRKT version.


Much respect!

-X
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Thanks for taking time to post,
Cutco actually owns Ka-Bar and a collaboration with the former could easily yield 7 figures.
No "buyers remorse" I simply wish to engage in a dialogue with the esteemed members of this subforum while conducting a little market research.
Have a great afternoon and thanks for showing respect,
Call me if I can ever assist you in any way. 361 443 0161
Cuidate Mucho
 
328xi said:
My biggest problem with collabs is when makers liscense their flagship designs to companies with crap quality, like Boker. The Epicenter and Bullseye are prime examples of this, Boker took two really awesome designs and turned them into absolute shite, and that hurt's a maker's rep. Benchmade, Spyderco, Protech, these companies know how to build a knife, and if I were a maker liscensing my flagship design to someone, I'd be very selective about who I let produce it. These guys would be on my list. Companies like Boker, SOG or CRKT would not, because frankly I don't think they're capable of executing to the degree of quality I would expect out a custom collab.
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I find it interesting that a post like this escapes comment here. If I posted that "John Doe" custom knifemaker had "crap quality" I am confident that several posters here would not only commet on such a post, but would be highly critical of it.

BTW, I own a Boker Bob Dozier collaboration drop point (basically like a Loveless style drop point) and the quality is very good. I own several Loveless-style production knives, and this one and the Beretta are the best of the bunch. So I do not understand why it is believed that Boker is not "capable of executing" a quality production knife.
 
My only input is that a direct copy for production can be a slightly personal hit. I own a Curtiss Knives Nano (I know, not in your $600 market range) with a Ti lock side and lime (toxic) green G10 side.

Guess who makes an EXACT copy of this knife, even down to the maker's mark on the blade? Boker. If the time comes that I need to part ways with my Nano, I'm going to be hard-pressed to prove it's a Curtiss, and not a Boker.

I think a similar yet distinctly different design collaboration is a much better route. It saves the "customs" as being custom, and the production for those who like the idea/design yet want to have something more affordable.
 
Lapp_Dance said:
My only input is that a direct copy for production can be a slightly personal hit. I own a Curtiss Knives Nano (I know, not in your $600 market range) with a Ti lock side and lime (toxic) green G10 side.

Guess who makes an EXACT copy of this knife, even down to the maker's mark on the blade? Boker. If the time comes that I need to part ways with my Nano, I'm going to be hard-pressed to prove it's a Curtiss, and not a Boker.

I think a similar yet distinctly different design collaboration is a much better route. It saves the "customs" as being custom, and the production for those who like the idea/design yet want to have something more affordable.
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Thanks for sharing.
Your post certainly illustrates a great point.
Have a great weekend friend.
Respect.
 
I like the collaborations. They are kind of like a gateway drug. I would guess many people buy the production model only to quickly lust after the real thing.
 
Virginian, I found that post to be offensive, but with ZERO hands-on knowledge of the Boker lineup I had to shrug it off as, at least possible.

We treat our makers like community and often dismiss hard-working and employing factories like they are government.

No, that's NOT a fair standard.

Coop
 
Here is my take on the topic of collaborations Mike. The way I look at it, these collabs can be more of a means of generating interest than a means to decrease it. The way I see it is fairly basic and may not be accurate for all makers or customers. If a certain person is, at the time, on a budget and can't spend upwards of 500 dollars on a knife, the collab gives them the option to still have a knife from a specific maker, albeit not a custom, but one designed by the maker. With this option at a lower price point this customer can now own and appreciate a snody design. If the collab is of solid quality, there is a sound possibility that that customer will seek out custom work from that maker if or when they are financially in a position to do so. If there was no collab, that same customer with a sub 200 budget at the time, would not have had the chance to own that makers design, and may very well never have developed a serious interest in their work. I see the whole collab as less of a "watering down" of a makers market, and more as a gateway to their market. Those who want a Snody but are not able to afford one, can get the production. Those that desire, and can afford the cost of a custom Snody will still buy them regardless. People who want your customs will buy the customs and possibly skip the production model, but I feel that the people who buy your productions will probably be tracking down a custom eventually. Like I said, IMHO production Snodys are a hell of a gateway drug.
 
Grayzer86 said:
Here is my take on the topic of collaborations Mike. The way I look at it, these collabs can be more of a means of generating interest than a means to decrease it. The way I see it is fairly basic and may not be accurate for all makers or customers. If a certain person is, at the time, on a budget and can't spend upwards of 500 dollars on a knife, the collab gives them the option to still have a knife from a specific maker, albeit not a custom, but one designed by the maker. With this option at a lower price point this customer can now own and appreciate a snody design. If the collab is of solid quality, there is a sound possibility that that customer will seek out custom work from that maker if or when they are financially in a position to do so. If there was no collab, that same customer with a sub 200 budget at the time, would not have had the chance to own that makers design, and may very well never have developed a serious interest in their work. I see the whole collab as less of a "watering down" of a makers market, and more as a gateway to their market. Those who want a Snody but are not able to afford one, can get the production. Those that desire, and can afford the cost of a custom Snody will still buy them regardless. People who want your customs will buy the customs and possibly skip the production model, but I feel that the people who buy your productions will probably be tracking down a custom eventually. Like I said, IMHO production Snodys are a hell of a gateway drug.
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That is a brilliant post my old friend
The Gateway Drug comment is pure sigline material.
Thanks for taking time to share your perspective.
This is really a great post and I received a tremendous amount of positive energy simply from reading it
Your observations parallel my own experiences in regards to collaborating with BM over the past decade.
Huge Respect from Texas.
 
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