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Collectors Viewpoint on Custom Knifemakers Collaborating with Knife Companies
- Thread starter Snody
- Start date
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- Sep 10, 2004
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That is music to my ears.
Thanks for taking time to post my friend
Thanks for spending your money on my designs.
I really appreciate it.
Much Respect.
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2012
- Messages
- 318
If anything it helps out, I didn't even know of Brad Southard until I got his flipper from Spyderco. Now he's one of my favorite makers.
Just make sure the product with your name on it isn't a piece of shit after the production company has had its way with it. It's your responsibility to make sure they don't skimp on the quality just as it's their responsibility to make as much profit as they can off each blade.
Just make sure the product with your name on it isn't a piece of shit after the production company has had its way with it. It's your responsibility to make sure they don't skimp on the quality just as it's their responsibility to make as much profit as they can off each blade.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2007
- Messages
- 3,798
Hi Mike. Never, ever have I seen this be a problem. Customs lead to production knives which lead to more customs which generate designs for more production knives (etc). I see it happen with a lot of makers and I have yet to see a designer tank the business because of a production model. Examples that leap to mind include you, Rick Hinderer, Laci Szabo, Fred Perrin, Bud Nealy, and David Mosier. There are dozens and possible hundreds more, with some extreme examples. One example: Kershaw produces some made-in-China versions of Hinderer designs, which sell for less than $40 through big box outlets, and yet the guy can still turn a single blade into four figures without batting an eyelash.
And it all ties together - a Szabo custom I bought made me look at his other stuff, introducing me to David Mosier, whose work I then looked up. I found and bought the Trigonaut production version ($40 or so, from Boker), and ended up buying a Mosier custom based on my faith in his design capabilities. And speaking of these two, Szabo and Mosier also collaborated on a knife known as the Folding Fly, which became the infamous Spyderco Szabo model that everyone is raving about now. Do I think this would hurt the sale of custom Folding Fly knives? No, absolutely not, and besides that I think fans of the Szabo folder are now more prone to buying more of his stuff, because he has a lot of neat pieces that are strictly customs.
I think custom sales help production sales and production sales help custom sales. Some people are strictly about customs or production knives, but, in my experience, those who follow the work of those they come to respect tend to end up with both.
And it all ties together - a Szabo custom I bought made me look at his other stuff, introducing me to David Mosier, whose work I then looked up. I found and bought the Trigonaut production version ($40 or so, from Boker), and ended up buying a Mosier custom based on my faith in his design capabilities. And speaking of these two, Szabo and Mosier also collaborated on a knife known as the Folding Fly, which became the infamous Spyderco Szabo model that everyone is raving about now. Do I think this would hurt the sale of custom Folding Fly knives? No, absolutely not, and besides that I think fans of the Szabo folder are now more prone to buying more of his stuff, because he has a lot of neat pieces that are strictly customs.
I think custom sales help production sales and production sales help custom sales. Some people are strictly about customs or production knives, but, in my experience, those who follow the work of those they come to respect tend to end up with both.
Good question.
The collaboration with a factory will help to add publicity to the maker.
This can work two ways.
If we go quality, then it will help everybody: the makers name get's known, the factory gets a good design and the customer gets an affordable quality knife.
This way it should affect the value of the maker and his work in a positive way.
It is also a way to win new customers, some which may go for the "real thing" in the future.
Does it make a difference, where the collaboration model is made? Yes, I'm sure - but that will change.
For example "Made in Japan" once was not the acme for quality - look at that today.
The " Made in Germany" has been a way of protecting british goods against german imports.
The Quality of the product should made the difference. That said, I have to admit, that you also have to consider the political environment.
That's one reason I love US made products.
The "selling out" effect: Can be, otoh a "custom" should allways be different and have soul.
Hope this helps.
red mag
PS: I do own Snody customs and a Benchmade Snody.
The collaboration with a factory will help to add publicity to the maker.
This can work two ways.
If we go quality, then it will help everybody: the makers name get's known, the factory gets a good design and the customer gets an affordable quality knife.
This way it should affect the value of the maker and his work in a positive way.
It is also a way to win new customers, some which may go for the "real thing" in the future.
Does it make a difference, where the collaboration model is made? Yes, I'm sure - but that will change.
For example "Made in Japan" once was not the acme for quality - look at that today.
The " Made in Germany" has been a way of protecting british goods against german imports.
The Quality of the product should made the difference. That said, I have to admit, that you also have to consider the political environment.
That's one reason I love US made products.
The "selling out" effect: Can be, otoh a "custom" should allways be different and have soul.
Hope this helps.
red mag
PS: I do own Snody customs and a Benchmade Snody.
Hi, Mike-
Take Claude Monet. He's one of the biggest rock stars of history.
I don't expect to ever own one of his paintings, but I take a lot of joy in having good quality prints of his work. Nobody, though, is going to confuse a Monet coffee mug with a Monet painting...I'd hope.
Same with Snody knives. I'd be happy to carry a Benchmade Snody, simply because it's a great design, and the fact that it has your name on it means (I assume) that you stand behind the quality. It's a whole different thing from owning one of your handmade knives, though.
That's the tough part, though: we see your name as you, personally guaranteeing the quality. So far real good.
Take Claude Monet. He's one of the biggest rock stars of history.
I don't expect to ever own one of his paintings, but I take a lot of joy in having good quality prints of his work. Nobody, though, is going to confuse a Monet coffee mug with a Monet painting...I'd hope.
Same with Snody knives. I'd be happy to carry a Benchmade Snody, simply because it's a great design, and the fact that it has your name on it means (I assume) that you stand behind the quality. It's a whole different thing from owning one of your handmade knives, though.
That's the tough part, though: we see your name as you, personally guaranteeing the quality. So far real good.
beagleboy
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Messages
- 58
Sorry, but that is nonsens.
Every Böker collab shows the logo of the maker (if he agrees, and everybody did so far) on the back side of the blade. And on the front side, the knife shows a big Böker or Böker Plus Logo (depending on the series it´s part from).
Furthermore, our Böker Plus Nano has a steel framelock, with a Zytel front scale with nested steel liner. I can´t really see how one could mix up the serial production collab with the custom.
Every knife from our production shows our logo, and we invented the Böker Plus line to make it more transparent for the customer where the knife comes from.
A logo with "Böker Solingen" means exactly that, i.e. the knife is made in Solingen, Germany.
And "Böker Plus" means the knife is not made in Germany.
We have several different origins for those knives; most come from Taiwan, some out of China, and one model even was made in the USA.
Our philosophy is to come designwise closest possible to what the custom knifemaker delivers, let it be a already known design, or something new for the serial production.
This does not necessarily mean that the materials are the same, as the example of the Nano shows. We changed blade steel and the complete handle materials (Ti and G10 against steel and Zytel), and nevertheless it´s obviously very similar, yet easy to determine.
It´s amazing to see how different the Boker bashing happens within this single thread. One member claims we are just not able to manufacture a quality knife, and another member complains about the production Nano being so similar that he can´t tell the difference to his custom...
I´m the last one to deny that some of our models had quality problems, but generally, we get it managed, and if you have unluckily a knife with a problem, we will fix it or replace it.
And if you have a look at the wide variety of custom collabs in our catalogue, and if you furthermore see how many of those knifemakers do collabs with us repeatedly, it´s hard to believe that all those knifemakers (e.g. Anso, Burke, Voxnaes, Burnley, Begg, Krein, Newton Martin, Manaro, Fitz, Marsh, Curtiss and many more) do not care about quality.
We sell thousands of knives, and it´s an old rule (and a natural phenomen) that complaints are always more and "louder" than comments by satisfied customers.
As I said: sure we are not perfect, but judging like some of you do is just not beased on reality.
@ Mike Snody: congrats to your new contract; sounds like the base for a great cooperation. Looking forward to see some protos!
Marc Goetzmann
Product Manager
Böker, Solingen / Germany
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2004
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- 6,212
there are i think 2 maybe 3 production Co. that i woudl even think to let use a design (if i ever came up with a good one ) these Co. have showen that they can get good product no matter where its made i woudl rather have them made in the USA but can understand the limitations of manufacturing in US plants
Professor
Gold Member
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- Apr 6, 1999
- Messages
- 3,432
Grayzer86's "gateway drug" comment sums it all up for me. Benchmade, Spydero, and Kershaw custom collabs not only serve as a taste of the custom realm, but they also provide someone like me the opportunity to thump hard and heavy on a knife whose custom counterpart I would be more apt to merely oogle and fondle.
I've had several companies' Loveless collabs over the years that I've enjoyed and put to good use, but it didn't stop me from acquiring several of the real thing to enjoy in a different way and pass on to my kids.
Production collabs should pay homage to their custom counterparts by being well fit and finished, of quality materials, but most important to me, should share the ergos that are truly signature to that custom maker. As a true user of blades, ergos and functionality to me have always been paramount in my purchase choices, production and custom.
That's how I've always viewed your collabs with BM, Mike. I dig your designs a lot, for what that's worth.
Prof.
I've had several companies' Loveless collabs over the years that I've enjoyed and put to good use, but it didn't stop me from acquiring several of the real thing to enjoy in a different way and pass on to my kids.
Production collabs should pay homage to their custom counterparts by being well fit and finished, of quality materials, but most important to me, should share the ergos that are truly signature to that custom maker. As a true user of blades, ergos and functionality to me have always been paramount in my purchase choices, production and custom.
That's how I've always viewed your collabs with BM, Mike. I dig your designs a lot, for what that's worth.
Prof.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 28,214
Marc, good on you for coming in and calling BS on some of the mean spirited and ignorant statements made in this thread.
I for one wish this kind of intervention would happen more often, which is unfortunate in that if people thought about the ramifications of what they say before issuing these types of comments in the first place, making these corrections wouldn't have to happen.
This is the number one cause of this forum, and forums in general, losing valuable members- like custom knife makers. I realize that statement in itself is absolutist, which I try to avoid, but I stand by it.
I for one wish this kind of intervention would happen more often, which is unfortunate in that if people thought about the ramifications of what they say before issuing these types of comments in the first place, making these corrections wouldn't have to happen.
This is the number one cause of this forum, and forums in general, losing valuable members- like custom knife makers. I realize that statement in itself is absolutist, which I try to avoid, but I stand by it.
I think Steve Ryan's approach is the best example of how the custom knifemaker should handle a production deal. His most popular knife was his Model 7; he had CRKT make a version of it that was roughly 3/4 the size. If you wanted a knife like the Model 7, you could buy a similar prodo knife. But it wasn't the same, either in size or materials. When he made knives for Surefire, they were unique designs to SF, and did not cannibalize any of his custom line models. The SF knives were really midtechs, of very high quality in every regard, but never impacted his custom knife sales because the designs were different.
The knifemakers who err are the ones who have exact replicas of most in demand models made by a prodo company. It dilutes the custom knife. This is particularly true for fixed blade designs, using premium steel, but also applies to those folders that use ti liners, premium steels, and materials of similar quality to the customs. I don't think its co-incidence that the market prices dropped for an Anso 67 once Boker started making titanium framelock versions sized the same as the custom. That didn't happen with Tom Mayo's Buck TNT, because it was a small, scaled down version - but they did sell at prices OVER retail list because they hit that magic spot of desirable design with quality build and materials.
The prodo collab is a great way to introduce yourself to a wide market, or make your work available to the masses. But as a custom knife collector, I have to follow Gresham's Law - the clone prodo is going to undermine the custom's value every time.
The knifemakers who err are the ones who have exact replicas of most in demand models made by a prodo company. It dilutes the custom knife. This is particularly true for fixed blade designs, using premium steel, but also applies to those folders that use ti liners, premium steels, and materials of similar quality to the customs. I don't think its co-incidence that the market prices dropped for an Anso 67 once Boker started making titanium framelock versions sized the same as the custom. That didn't happen with Tom Mayo's Buck TNT, because it was a small, scaled down version - but they did sell at prices OVER retail list because they hit that magic spot of desirable design with quality build and materials.
The prodo collab is a great way to introduce yourself to a wide market, or make your work available to the masses. But as a custom knife collector, I have to follow Gresham's Law - the clone prodo is going to undermine the custom's value every time.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
I’m not seeing as the statement you are quoting is putting down Boker knives in any way. I see it as the poster complimenting Boker and saying that they did a great job with the production of this knife. Because of the nature of the internet, you can frequently come away from a written statement with two(or more) different perceptions. There is also the possibility of language being intrusive into the flow of thought…sometimes things just don’t read right.
The clarification on what the markings mean is very helpful, thank you.
I sell the living heck out of Boker products, and think they are fabulous, especially for the money. I personally own and carry a heavily modified Nano, an 01BO036, the Applegate Fairbairn, the new Manaro Bullseye(out of the park, that one!) and am waiting on the new titanium .45 CID pen.
Stick around BladeForums, your voice is welcome.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
The clarification on what the markings mean is very helpful, thank you.
I sell the living heck out of Boker products, and think they are fabulous, especially for the money. I personally own and carry a heavily modified Nano, an 01BO036, the Applegate Fairbairn, the new Manaro Bullseye(out of the park, that one!) and am waiting on the new titanium .45 CID pen.
Stick around BladeForums, your voice is welcome.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Sorry, but that is nonsens.
Every Böker collab shows the logo of the maker (if he agrees, and everybody did so far) on the back side of the blade. And on the front side, the knife shows a big Böker or Böker Plus Logo (depending on the series it´s part from).
Furthermore, our Böker Plus Nano has a steel framelock, with a Zytel front scale with nested steel liner. I can´t really see how one could mix up the serial production collab with the custom.
Every knife from our production shows our logo, and we invented the Böker Plus line to make it more transparent for the customer where the knife comes from.
A logo with "Böker Solingen" means exactly that, i.e. the knife is made in Solingen, Germany.
And "Böker Plus" means the knife is not made in Germany.
We have several different origins for those knives; most come from Taiwan, some out of China, and one model even was made in the USA.
Our philosophy is to come designwise closest possible to what the custom knifemaker delivers, let it be a already known design, or something new for the serial production.
This does not necessarily mean that the materials are the same, as the example of the Nano shows. We changed blade steel and the complete handle materials (Ti and G10 against steel and Zytel), and nevertheless it´s obviously very similar, yet easy to determine.
As I said: sure we are not perfect, but judging like some of you do is just not beased on reality.
Marc Goetzmann
Product Manager
Böker, Solingen / Germany
I wanted to buy the Boker Fisk MUK as soon as I saw it in the AGRussell catalog. I looked at about 3 at gun/knife shows and a Brick and Morter but the fit/finish/quality was so poor, I could not find one to take home. I liked the design though.
For years, I lusted after the Miltner Adams' products based upon their pictures and hype on the internet. They were hard if not impossible to find/get. However, when I saw AGRussell was carrying the Boker version, I got a Boker Miltner Adams MA-2. However, I got it sight-unseen with trepidation due to my trying to find a decent MUK. The knife I received was of poor design (could not get my finger into the holes, the sheath could not be placed conveniently, changing the clip was frustrating, etc.) and incredibly poor execution (the edge was so obtuse, that a professional sharpener would not touch it.) I've tried giving it away, but no takers yet. I know I could ship it back to AGR for a refund, but I didn't since I consider it my fault for being too stupid to stay away from Boker after trying to find a decent Fisk MUK.
Based upon my experience with Boker collaborations, I would not recommend them to anyone...but maybe your Soligen products are better?
What is the blowback for the knifemaker?
Well I've met Jerry Fisk, and he's a nice guy but I can't afford his work. I was disappointed in his choice of a supplier and will never buy a production knife of his sight unseen. It's kept me from picking up the Cammilus version of the Sendero w/o being able to hold it in hand.
With Miltner Adams, the design was poor as well as construction. Now was the poor sheath and knife grip their design or Boker's changes to their design? I don't know, but I won't even think about a Miltner Adams production or custom knife in the future.
For years, I lusted after the Miltner Adams' products based upon their pictures and hype on the internet. They were hard if not impossible to find/get. However, when I saw AGRussell was carrying the Boker version, I got a Boker Miltner Adams MA-2. However, I got it sight-unseen with trepidation due to my trying to find a decent MUK. The knife I received was of poor design (could not get my finger into the holes, the sheath could not be placed conveniently, changing the clip was frustrating, etc.) and incredibly poor execution (the edge was so obtuse, that a professional sharpener would not touch it.) I've tried giving it away, but no takers yet. I know I could ship it back to AGR for a refund, but I didn't since I consider it my fault for being too stupid to stay away from Boker after trying to find a decent Fisk MUK.
Based upon my experience with Boker collaborations, I would not recommend them to anyone...but maybe your Soligen products are better?
What is the blowback for the knifemaker?
Well I've met Jerry Fisk, and he's a nice guy but I can't afford his work. I was disappointed in his choice of a supplier and will never buy a production knife of his sight unseen. It's kept me from picking up the Cammilus version of the Sendero w/o being able to hold it in hand.
With Miltner Adams, the design was poor as well as construction. Now was the poor sheath and knife grip their design or Boker's changes to their design? I don't know, but I won't even think about a Miltner Adams production or custom knife in the future.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
- Messages
- 3,423
Thanks Marc,
I value our friendship and you know how I feel about you because I have told you personally.
I respect you greatly and I love how passionate you are about producing knives.
I am still carrying the little blade you gave me when we last spoke.
Stay safe and thank you for the positive thoughts. I really appreciate it.
I still owe you dinner so next time your in Texas you better call me..
Huge Respect.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
- Messages
- 3,423
I got my check today Bro..
Your a Rock Star!
Thanks for helping my career.
I value your counsel and consider myself very fortunate to count you as close friend.
I got your back. Much Love from Texas.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
- Messages
- 3,423
Thanks Dude,
I appreciate you taking time to share.
Great post and sage advice.
Much Respect.
What up playa!? Hope you and the new monster are doing well, sir! He must be getting big now....
I think that there is a BIG difference between the customs and production lines from what I've owned over the years... Unless it's a "mid-tech" usually the production runs are a far cry from the customs. That is to be expected, of course. No way a machine can detail or hone a grind like the Master... But I think each serves a purpose.
First off, congrats on Ka-Bar and the fact that they're US made is a HUUUUUGE factor for me. I often pass up blades that were made on the production line from outside the country... Not for quality control reasons.... I dunno why really! I have seen some super cheap Chinese knives that were pretty well built and insanely sharp for ten bucks! However, I won't carry them. Even the sweet Spyderco models that aren't made in the US make me uneasy... No reflection at all on the quality....
So, the bottom line is DESIGN. Period. ...and yours rock amigo... Without a doubt.... Solid.
Also, another thing is to consider is this... Realize you are risking many things by taking a custom blade out into the world... From accidentally losing it all the way to having to submit it for evidence in a self-defense case (oh, yeah use it to fight and ya gotta give it up to the boys in blue until your court case). Do you really want that awesome hand ground Snody outta your mitts for even one second? A chance you have to think about...
A great hand ground knife to buy is a Snody Boss-uber knife @ affordable price.... OR...You can buy a thousand production Snody's and not feel the pain of price or loss while still sporting a superb blade design...
I wish you all the best Mike and I will be looking out for the KB's!
Cojelo suave Hermano,
-Raf
I think that there is a BIG difference between the customs and production lines from what I've owned over the years... Unless it's a "mid-tech" usually the production runs are a far cry from the customs. That is to be expected, of course. No way a machine can detail or hone a grind like the Master... But I think each serves a purpose.
First off, congrats on Ka-Bar and the fact that they're US made is a HUUUUUGE factor for me. I often pass up blades that were made on the production line from outside the country... Not for quality control reasons.... I dunno why really! I have seen some super cheap Chinese knives that were pretty well built and insanely sharp for ten bucks! However, I won't carry them. Even the sweet Spyderco models that aren't made in the US make me uneasy... No reflection at all on the quality....
So, the bottom line is DESIGN. Period. ...and yours rock amigo... Without a doubt.... Solid.
Also, another thing is to consider is this... Realize you are risking many things by taking a custom blade out into the world... From accidentally losing it all the way to having to submit it for evidence in a self-defense case (oh, yeah use it to fight and ya gotta give it up to the boys in blue until your court case). Do you really want that awesome hand ground Snody outta your mitts for even one second? A chance you have to think about...
A great hand ground knife to buy is a Snody Boss-uber knife @ affordable price.... OR...You can buy a thousand production Snody's and not feel the pain of price or loss while still sporting a superb blade design...
I wish you all the best Mike and I will be looking out for the KB's!
Cojelo suave Hermano,
-Raf
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2007
- Messages
- 2,624
Many years ago I used to sit and drool over the pages of American Handgunner , and the articles/images of Ichiro Nagata.
Center spreads always had either a custom knife or a high end collab. Not having the coin for a custom back then, I remember buying the BM/Elishewitz , the BM/Snody's , etc. Gateway drug indeed. It led me towards customs.
It didn't lead me away from productions entirely , but it did expand my collection to include some customs and more collab productions.
Bringing quality designs to the mass market, with your name on the blade as well , win/win.
That little BM210 BM/Snody Activator fixed blade I carried for years , got more inquiries than any other production knife, and resulted in many friends buying and still carrying/using them.
Selling out by doing collabs ? Not in my eyes.
Center spreads always had either a custom knife or a high end collab. Not having the coin for a custom back then, I remember buying the BM/Elishewitz , the BM/Snody's , etc. Gateway drug indeed. It led me towards customs.
It didn't lead me away from productions entirely , but it did expand my collection to include some customs and more collab productions.
Bringing quality designs to the mass market, with your name on the blade as well , win/win.
That little BM210 BM/Snody Activator fixed blade I carried for years , got more inquiries than any other production knife, and resulted in many friends buying and still carrying/using them.
Selling out by doing collabs ? Not in my eyes.