Good post Joss. I agree. Short of that, if the purveyors buy out a maker I'd like to at least be able to see the knives. It'd be great if the purveyor could then exhibit them on his/her own table, whether or not they intend to resell them at that moment.
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Collectors vs. Purveyors At Knife Shows!
- Thread starter RWS
- Start date
Les Robertson
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RWS,
Ok, I'll ask the obvious questions.
Why don't you come to the show on Thursday night?
If that is not possible, what keeps you from picking up the phone and calling the maker prior to the show?
If that is not possible, how about emailing the maker?
Ok, I'll ask the obvious questions.
Why don't you come to the show on Thursday night?
If that is not possible, what keeps you from picking up the phone and calling the maker prior to the show?
If that is not possible, how about emailing the maker?
Les Robertson
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Hi Joss,
You know what I am recommending will not elminate shows. It might even help them. If makers new ahead of time what buyers were looking for, they would gear their show inventory towards that. Thus making the collectors happier, put more money in their pockets and put a smile on the face of the show promoter.
The reality is that for most makers sales at shows have slowed across the country. This is due in large part to; the amount of shows per year, the cost and perceived problems with flying your knives and the Internet.
Makers understand this and are maybe just a little quicker to sell a knife before the show opens to pay expenses. BTW, it costs $1,000.00 on average to attend set up at a major show.
However, more to the point of this thread.
If your goal is a particular knife from a particular maker. You should contact the maker prior to the show. Send them a deposit to hold the knife for you. Then again you may find out that the maker is not coming or that he is not bringing the knife you wanted.
This will save you the aggrevation and expense of travelling to a show that neither the maker or knife you wanted will be there. This would go alont way to eliminating the angst, that RWS and other like him feel.
Additionally, RWS's complaint only affects about 10 - 15% of the makers attending any particular show. So don't worry that other 85-90% will have plenty of knives on their table.
What bothers me about this thread is the way RWS generalizes about dealers.
I don't buy knives at a "great discount" before the show. Fact of the matter is I buy very few knives at the show. I do place orders for knives months before the show to be delivered there. But those are not knives that would have gone on the makers table anyway. I do set up at the shows and I do put "some" of the knives on my table.
If I put all of the knives and the table and sold them. The next week I would getting beat up here for not udating my site often enough.
You know what I am recommending will not elminate shows. It might even help them. If makers new ahead of time what buyers were looking for, they would gear their show inventory towards that. Thus making the collectors happier, put more money in their pockets and put a smile on the face of the show promoter.
The reality is that for most makers sales at shows have slowed across the country. This is due in large part to; the amount of shows per year, the cost and perceived problems with flying your knives and the Internet.
Makers understand this and are maybe just a little quicker to sell a knife before the show opens to pay expenses. BTW, it costs $1,000.00 on average to attend set up at a major show.
However, more to the point of this thread.
If your goal is a particular knife from a particular maker. You should contact the maker prior to the show. Send them a deposit to hold the knife for you. Then again you may find out that the maker is not coming or that he is not bringing the knife you wanted.
This will save you the aggrevation and expense of travelling to a show that neither the maker or knife you wanted will be there. This would go alont way to eliminating the angst, that RWS and other like him feel.
Additionally, RWS's complaint only affects about 10 - 15% of the makers attending any particular show. So don't worry that other 85-90% will have plenty of knives on their table.
What bothers me about this thread is the way RWS generalizes about dealers.
I don't buy knives at a "great discount" before the show. Fact of the matter is I buy very few knives at the show. I do place orders for knives months before the show to be delivered there. But those are not knives that would have gone on the makers table anyway. I do set up at the shows and I do put "some" of the knives on my table.
If I put all of the knives and the table and sold them. The next week I would getting beat up here for not udating my site often enough.
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Interesting thread.
Tom gives some great advise, if you are going to a show and really are looking for a specific knife. Get in touch with the maker before the show.
Folks these "purveyors" are not so bad. On more than one occasion I have seen re-sellers bow out when a collector showed interest. I had that happen at Blade last year and this year. On many occasions sales to a purveyor during a show might just be orders being delivered. As far as great discounts, I have been around for a while and have never seen them.
Some examples of what I have seen. Purveyors at the Bose Lottery with the same chance to obtain a knife as anyone else. Maker's refusing to sell until the doors are open to the public. Each maker has their own way of handling things. I am thankful that they do we need to purveyors to stay in business too.
Tom gives some great advise, if you are going to a show and really are looking for a specific knife. Get in touch with the maker before the show.
Folks these "purveyors" are not so bad
. On more than one occasion I have seen re-sellers bow out when a collector showed interest. I had that happen at Blade last year and this year. On many occasions sales to a purveyor during a show might just be orders being delivered. As far as great discounts, I have been around for a while and have never seen them. Some examples of what I have seen. Purveyors at the Bose Lottery with the same chance to obtain a knife as anyone else. Maker's refusing to sell until the doors are open to the public. Each maker has their own way of handling things. I am thankful that they do we need to purveyors to stay in business too.
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There's a difference between surveying your customers to bring a well-targetted inventory to the show, and preselling. In the first case, well, you have great inventory when the doors open. In the second case, well, depending on what you specialize in either you have already sold out or you have at least sold the best pieces.
And it costs several hundred $ to fly to one as a collector. This is no argument.
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After being to only two knife shows two times each, in the short time I've been collecting knives, this Thursday night phenomenon of selling and buying knives behind show patrons backs is a relatively new discovery for me.
To me, it's not fair gamesmanship and I'll not play. I like going to the shows when the doors open and looking and then possibly buying something. That's why I go.
If you think there is nothing wrong in approaching knifemakers the night before the show doors even open and buying his knives up before he has a chance to put them on his table for the shows' customers, go for it! You have the right to earn a living and this may be how it's suppose to be done.
Eventually, if I keep going to shows where my favorite makers have no knives, I'll quit going to shows. This is an extremely simple equation for me!
Les Robertson
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Hi Joss and RWS,
The point to all this. RWS your complaining about dealers and collectors getting knives before the show. Ive been going to shows for 18 years and it's always been that way.
The problem, if there is one, is that some knives are being pre-sold the night before the show; or on Friday before it opens to the public.
Joss and RWS, I would suggest if you feel this is a problem. Perhaps you should start another thread. This time addressing the crux of the perceived problem....Those who are selling the knives.
Collectors and dealers can't buy them if they are not for sale.
Guys the fact is for dealers and the makers this is a business. While we wish we could accomodate every collector who walked through the door. The simple truth is we can't.
The other simple truth is. If you can't make enough profit to cover the expenses of the show...you stop doing the show.
I think I can speak for most of the makers and dealers out there. More times than not we have held knives for people who were "Coming to the show for sure" to pick up a knife. Sunday afternoon arrives and the customer is a no show. That knife sat there for 2-3 days. You could have sold it several times over. But no you held if for that customer. How would your show rules cover this?
You have to look at both sides of the coin.
Guys you can't have it both ways. You want the table holders to provide you with the best selection of knives. While at the same time you want there to be no obligation on your part to buy one of these knives.
Joss, as for expenses not being an arguement. Of course it is. For a collector who is going to fly, rent a car, get a room, etc. It is even more imperative that those collectors contact their favorite makers prior to the show.
RWS, last question. Which maker is it that you can't get a knife from at the show? I suspect you are mostly annoyed because you can't get the knife for this makers retail price?
The point to all this. RWS your complaining about dealers and collectors getting knives before the show. Ive been going to shows for 18 years and it's always been that way.
The problem, if there is one, is that some knives are being pre-sold the night before the show; or on Friday before it opens to the public.
Joss and RWS, I would suggest if you feel this is a problem. Perhaps you should start another thread. This time addressing the crux of the perceived problem....Those who are selling the knives.
Collectors and dealers can't buy them if they are not for sale.
Guys the fact is for dealers and the makers this is a business. While we wish we could accomodate every collector who walked through the door. The simple truth is we can't.
The other simple truth is. If you can't make enough profit to cover the expenses of the show...you stop doing the show.
I think I can speak for most of the makers and dealers out there. More times than not we have held knives for people who were "Coming to the show for sure" to pick up a knife. Sunday afternoon arrives and the customer is a no show. That knife sat there for 2-3 days. You could have sold it several times over. But no you held if for that customer. How would your show rules cover this?
You have to look at both sides of the coin.
Guys you can't have it both ways. You want the table holders to provide you with the best selection of knives. While at the same time you want there to be no obligation on your part to buy one of these knives.
Joss, as for expenses not being an arguement. Of course it is. For a collector who is going to fly, rent a car, get a room, etc. It is even more imperative that those collectors contact their favorite makers prior to the show.
RWS, last question. Which maker is it that you can't get a knife from at the show? I suspect you are mostly annoyed because you can't get the knife for this makers retail price?
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Les - the issue is one of respecting one's engagement, vis-a-vis the show promoteurs and the show-goers. If so-and-so says they will come at the show, there's an implicit promess that they will come with soimething for sale - customers don't come all the way just to say hi.
This is just as immoral. Why you would accept to do anything like that baffles me, quite frankly.
To know what they bring, sure. But it is still no justification for makers to actually sell them.
Makers who can sell the evening before the show are precisely the ones who can be sure to sell during the show anyway, so there even is no pragmatic justification. (I suspect this is only done with long standing customers / friends.)
JD
Les Robertson
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Joss,
The impliciet promise you speak of would have to work both ways. If I promise to bring knives you promise to buy knives.
Again, both sides have to be represented equally in any valid contract.
Without the implicit promise of a purchase, there can be no implicit promise not to sell prior to the show opening.
As for holding knives for clients. We do that because of the implicit promise of purchase. There for for it to be a valid contract, we must honor the implicit promise that we will hold the knife until the buyer arrives.
Quite frankly it is an unenforceable contract. Show contracts are meerly a CYA drawn up by the promoters attorney as required by the insurance company and the hotel where the show is to be held.
Having promoted two custom knife shows I am very familiar with the contracts.
Having set up at more shows than I can remember, I am familiar with the show contracts.
I personally have never attended a show where it was stipulated in the contract you could not sell a knife prior to the show opening. That being said I have not attended every show ever put on in the US. Most of them at one time or another...but not all of them.
I have seen caveat's where you had to stay until the close of the show and you must stay at the hotel the show is being put on at.
The promoters understand they cannot force someone not to sell a knife. Because if they were to do that. The maker could easily show up next year, not get a table and sell all of their knives in the bar or hotel room on Thursday night before the show opens.
If there was such a rule it could be bypassed by simply marking the knife sold as soon as the show opened.
The same makers you want to see are the same makers the promoters want at their show. They make their money from the table fee's and the gate. No big name makers...no big time gate. No big time gate, bills don't get paid and the show goes away.
Show promoters are not putting on shows to lose money.
Lastly, belive it or not some collectors do come hundreds of miles just to say hi. As many of them have pre-ordered a knife and are there to pick it up.
The impliciet promise you speak of would have to work both ways. If I promise to bring knives you promise to buy knives.
Again, both sides have to be represented equally in any valid contract.
Without the implicit promise of a purchase, there can be no implicit promise not to sell prior to the show opening.
As for holding knives for clients. We do that because of the implicit promise of purchase. There for for it to be a valid contract, we must honor the implicit promise that we will hold the knife until the buyer arrives.
Quite frankly it is an unenforceable contract. Show contracts are meerly a CYA drawn up by the promoters attorney as required by the insurance company and the hotel where the show is to be held.
Having promoted two custom knife shows I am very familiar with the contracts.
Having set up at more shows than I can remember, I am familiar with the show contracts.
I personally have never attended a show where it was stipulated in the contract you could not sell a knife prior to the show opening. That being said I have not attended every show ever put on in the US. Most of them at one time or another...but not all of them.
I have seen caveat's where you had to stay until the close of the show and you must stay at the hotel the show is being put on at.
The promoters understand they cannot force someone not to sell a knife. Because if they were to do that. The maker could easily show up next year, not get a table and sell all of their knives in the bar or hotel room on Thursday night before the show opens.
If there was such a rule it could be bypassed by simply marking the knife sold as soon as the show opened.
The same makers you want to see are the same makers the promoters want at their show. They make their money from the table fee's and the gate. No big name makers...no big time gate. No big time gate, bills don't get paid and the show goes away.
Show promoters are not putting on shows to lose money.
Lastly, belive it or not some collectors do come hundreds of miles just to say hi. As many of them have pre-ordered a knife and are there to pick it up.
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The reason for opposite sides in this argument is due to the difference between the purveyor and hobbiest. I think the main difference between the hobbiest, like myself, and a purveyor stems from the motivation for buying the knife to begin with.
When I purchase a knife from a maker it is because I have fallen in love with it, so to speak. When a purveyor purchases a knife it is because he wants to make a profit from it. Oh he/she may like the knife, but that really isn't necessary for him/her to buy it. And even if the purveyor likes it they will sell it to make the 25% markup on cost. I won't! That's ok, though!
This difference between the average collector and purveyor, however, seems to clash at the knife show. A person that's in something solely for the profit of it will a lot of times do what they can to make a deal. Even cut in line if allowed and do the backdoor deal with the maker before the show starts while the hobbiest, speaking for myself only, will wait in line and take my turn when it comes. Am I a fool for doing it this way? No! I'm just the average collector who loves knives! I am not willing to play, what I consider, unfair at a knife show just to make those few extra dollars on the deal. my motivations as a hobbiest are not driven the same way as the purveyor. The purveyors' need and overwhelming desire to turn a profit is what makes him/her quite different from the average collector, IMO. This difference is the reason why the average collector will pay to get into a show, wait in line to get into the show, and wait his turn at the makers table while some purveyors won't.
I'll admit that I would like my knives to increase in value but that isn't necessay for me to buy it.
Furthermore it's alright to be in business and it's essential to make the profit. But I feel that a lot of times some folks that are just into the money making side of things ignore basic unwritten rules of fairness just to make that profit.
Oh by the way, this complaint has nothing at all to do with me not being able to buy a certain makers knife at his retail price. You are a purveyor and are looking at my complaint as one motivated by the thing that motivates you, which is profit!
With respect to the makers part in all this, you are correct that they are just as guilty.
I don't have an answer for this problem and I want the purveyors to have their supply of knives!! This is a dilemma!!
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Guys, the bottom line is to make some friends with folks meet some makers they may know and go from there. You will have a great time along the way. There are just so many that a maker brings to a show just as there are so many that can be made in a year. (Heck it even is fun to make friends with those purveyors. (Who knows who you might meet or what you might learn through them)). .
What I am saying here is the same old song from me. "It's about the people." Over the years you find that you go to shows and sometimes you get exactly what you had hoped for (and more), sometimes you do not get "the" knife, (at least there are a lot of other choices around).
There is no implicit promise for a maker to have knives for sale at the shows I have been able to attend. I know of many who go to shows with pictures and/or knives they have made that are on loan and are there to take orders. That really is not unusual at all. There have been a few times I have wished I was at a show with some knives I have "lent out". Some have travelled a lot more than I have.
.
. What I am saying here is the same old song from me. "It's about the people." Over the years you find that you go to shows and sometimes you get exactly what you had hoped for (and more), sometimes you do not get "the" knife, (at least there are a lot of other choices around).
There is no implicit promise for a maker to have knives for sale at the shows I have been able to attend. I know of many who go to shows with pictures and/or knives they have made that are on loan and are there to take orders. That really is not unusual at all. There have been a few times I have wished I was at a show with some knives I have "lent out". Some have travelled a lot more than I have.
.
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Hello RWS,
Get there early and enjoy the show. I would recomend purchasing that knife early at the show. You may not get a second chance other than getting onto a waiting list.
I feel for the knife user/collector arriving late or at the opening and seeing a sold out sign. Some knife shows even the playing field by letting in the club members/public in at the same time the tableholders arrive to set up their tables. OKCA and BAKCA are two knife shows that come to mind at this moment, that offer this.
Get there early and enjoy the show. I would recomend purchasing that knife early at the show. You may not get a second chance other than getting onto a waiting list.
I feel for the knife user/collector arriving late or at the opening and seeing a sold out sign. Some knife shows even the playing field by letting in the club members/public in at the same time the tableholders arrive to set up their tables. OKCA and BAKCA are two knife shows that come to mind at this moment, that offer this.
GigOne
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Exactly.
If I may interject. . .
Just because you get into a show earlier, than the rest of the crowd, doesn't mean that you'll get a knife from a "target maker." Believe me ! ! !
This year was my first year at Blade. Several weeks before the show I picked up a maker/dealer listing and a floor plan of the show. Mapped out who'z table that I'd hit (throughout the show) and even prioritized specific makers tables. For I had a "plan." Actually, it was a 2 part plan.
Plan #1: To hit 3 specific makers tables with the express intent of possessing one of each of their wares.
Even had a early entry pass lined up.
I'm not sure what was bigger. . .my smile or my eyes.
My thought, "Man, I was in there !"
To make a long story short. . .I wasn't able to score from the 3 makers that I had targeted.
Oh well. . .life goes on !
Pulled my trusty action plan (aka floor plan) out of my pack and began cruisin' the show. That was "Plan #2."
It was a very long day ! If I'm not mistaken. . .I hit just about every table at the show. Got to meet and talk to most of the makers and dealers that I've long held great respect for. Was also able to meet quite a few "BF - Forumites."
Was even able to leave that evening with several blades (to the displeasure of my significant other).
I had a BLAST ! I took me at least a week to come down from the high !
Yeah. . .I didn't get my target knives this year.
We'll see what next year brings. A new plan of attack has been formulated.
GigOne
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A very good friend, Gus !
Only 2 days ? Hmmmmm. . .I'm thinkin' and plannin' on at least 2 ! 
Like I said, "A new plan of attack has been formulated."
Hopefully, the next Blade "may" reel in a fine score(s). If not, I'll cruise the floor and be very very happy !
U da goat Bastid !
Only 2 days ?
Hmmmmm. . .I'm thinkin' and plannin' on at least 2 ! Like I said, "A new plan of attack has been formulated."
Hopefully, the next Blade "may" reel in a fine score(s). If not, I'll cruise the floor and be very very happy !
U da goat Bastid !
Les Robertson
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RWS,
After re-reading all the posts, I find that I agree with you. I too would like to see the dealers you are referring to forced to wait until the show opens to have access to the custom knives.
You know the ones, those dealers who only attend, and don't set up at the shows. They show up early on Thursday and are found in the makers rooms or in the bars trying to buy knives before the show opens.
Many of these are the same dealers that Cut in Line, or try and get in early. By using a badge a maker or show promoter has given or sold to them. I agree with you, they should be banned from buying any knives until the show opens to the general public.
RWS, you are on the right track. I think you should address each maker who sells to these dealers before the show. As well as those promoters who allow them to use a makers extra badge to get in early. Or sell them an exhibitor badge to get in before the general public.
As it would seem there is more than one group involved in a show that is in it soley for the money.
RWS, I think perhaps you should take it a step further. By listing, publicly those makes who are selling before the show opens.
Those dealers who are "Cutting in Line and/or sneaking in early" and buying the knives from the aforementioned makers.
As well as the show promoters who allow this.
By arming your fellow collectors with this information. You could boycott those Makers who sell early, those dealers who cut in line or sneak in early. As well as stop attending shows who's promoters allow this.
Good Luck.
After re-reading all the posts, I find that I agree with you. I too would like to see the dealers you are referring to forced to wait until the show opens to have access to the custom knives.
You know the ones, those dealers who only attend, and don't set up at the shows. They show up early on Thursday and are found in the makers rooms or in the bars trying to buy knives before the show opens.
Many of these are the same dealers that Cut in Line, or try and get in early. By using a badge a maker or show promoter has given or sold to them. I agree with you, they should be banned from buying any knives until the show opens to the general public.
RWS, you are on the right track. I think you should address each maker who sells to these dealers before the show. As well as those promoters who allow them to use a makers extra badge to get in early. Or sell them an exhibitor badge to get in before the general public.
As it would seem there is more than one group involved in a show that is in it soley for the money.
RWS, I think perhaps you should take it a step further. By listing, publicly those makes who are selling before the show opens.
Those dealers who are "Cutting in Line and/or sneaking in early" and buying the knives from the aforementioned makers.
As well as the show promoters who allow this.
By arming your fellow collectors with this information. You could boycott those Makers who sell early, those dealers who cut in line or sneak in early. As well as stop attending shows who's promoters allow this.
Good Luck.
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I agree with you, Les. As far as I'm concerned, if these dealers were to at least set up a table at the show it would do a couple of things IMO. It would contribute something back to the show, instead of just taking, AND it would allow the customers of the show to see all the wonderful knives they have gotten from those great makers that sell to them.
I would still prefer that the maker not sell his stuff before the show starts but at least, if these dealers had a table, I could look at these knives and have a chance to buy one while I'm at the show.
I would still be a little frustrated if I knew that these knives were sold on Thursday night, though!
Les Robertson
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RWS,
Im glad to see you now can see the difference between different dealers.
In the beginning you were generalizing that it was the "dealers". In fact it is not all dealers.
Just as it is not all makers selling before the show.
However, you still seem to be focusing on the dealers. Remember, we can't buy them if they are not for sale before the show opens.
It's only fair to point out all the parties involved.
Im glad to see you now can see the difference between different dealers.
In the beginning you were generalizing that it was the "dealers". In fact it is not all dealers.
Just as it is not all makers selling before the show.
However, you still seem to be focusing on the dealers. Remember, we can't buy them if they are not for sale before the show opens.
It's only fair to point out all the parties involved.