Collectors vs. Purveyors At Knife Shows!

I have been watching this thread with interest. It is true that Les takes delivery, he has never bought off me before hours at a show. If he did he would be leaving his business to chance on what you would have etc. Not good business.
The ABS show in Reno asks the makers to please leave the knives on the table till the end of the show. The doors are closed to all buyers till the appointed time to open them. Then they come in like a wave of water. I was lucky enough to sell out in 6 minutes with no money changing hands at the time. A person would just walk up to the table or even just walk by and point and say "that one if mine I will be back later". Well the guy that came by 10 minutes after opening was
to late yet no dealers bought from me. And certainly not before hours. However there were plenty knives to look at as we all left them on the table as requested.
Some very interesting exchanges.
jf
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
Jerry, this sounds like a show that I am going to have to take in.
Click to expand...

It's the most concentrated show (in quality) I've ever been too. This year, there should even be Mr. Moran and Don Fogg, both of whom couldn't come last year.

JD
 
Originally posted by fisk
The ABS show in Reno asks the makers to please leave the knives on the table till the end of the show
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I haven't been to the Reno show as of yet.
However, something as simple as this common sense rule will draw me to it because I know now that I'll be able to see some knives from the guys I really want to buy from!

I may not be one of the lucky ones to get that baby, but the maker will be able to SHOW me his stuff!
There is a lot to a show. Meeting people, kicking back and having a beer or two or three... after the end of the day with some friends, etc.. These are very important parts of the fun of a show.

But, when all is said and done, being able to pick up or look at some knives at some of my favorite makers' tables and maybe order one just like it is really what a show is all about for me.

If there are no knives at his table, I feel I have missed out.
 
Well, there's been a lot of poo-poo posted by some who have no idea of a knifemakers perspective of a knife show. Here is THIS makers perspective.

People come to shows to buy a knife or maybe two, meet the makers, meet friends, to have fun, etc. It's a SOCIAL THING.

Serious makers come to shows for the many of the same reasons, but the biggest reason is to SELL KNIVES. It's a BUSINESS THING. You really knew that, deep down in your heart, didn't you?

I come to knife shows to sell knives. I will sell my knives to anyone who wants to buy one. That's my job. You know why... sure, I have to meet show expenses......but I also have to pay my mortgage, food bills, insurance, car payments, and on and on....just like everyone else. I have no employer handing me a paycheck every Friday. I truly have to work and hustle for every cent I earn. I have to sell knives...period. No slip, no laundry.

No, I'm not going to make and deliver pre-ordered knives at shows. These knives are like money in the bank. I'm coming with new, ready to sell stock, I need the money.

No, I'm not going to make specific type knives for a targeted market. That targeted market already came to the last show or will be at the next show....never at this show.

No, I'm not holding a show knife for you to buy when and if you show up. But, I will put that knife aside until, say, 1-2 PM on opening day. If you are not there by then, I'll sell it. I don't care if you are my younger brother.

No, I don't want to keep the knife you just bought on my table for others to see. Please take it with you, it's your knife. I don't want t be responsible when that jerk practices his foward to reverse grip twirling manipulations directly over my table and your knife. I don't want to be responsible if your knife is stolen. It's your knife, take it.

No, I won't sell to customers or dealers the night before the show opens, but, I will invite you to get a VIP pass so you can come to my table an hour before the show opens to the general public.

No, I will not sell all of my best knives to dealers at the start of a show...even though that's when they have all of their BEST MONEY.

No, I will not hold all of my knives until Mr. RWS makes his way to my table, fondles them, says "nice knives" and then moves on to the next table to fondle some more.

Most customers know the best time to come to a show is on the opening afternoon or first thing the next day. That's when you are all there, right?? Get there early, get the best stuff...right?

What about the rest of the show.....Saturday afternoon and especially Sunday. See most of the makers sitting around twiddling their thumbs? Not too much traffic in the room, huh? Noise level down quite a bit from this morning, huh? Lotsa knives on some tables, huh? Jeez...the dealer wanted 2 more knives before the show opened, I should have sold them. Jeez...the dealers spent all their money. Jeez, Joe never came for the knife he asked me to hold for him.

Jeez it's slow, but it's my "responsibility" to be here. Why doesn't the buying public have a "responsibility" to be here? (Note: there will be at least one maker who posts that he does his best business on Sat. afternoon an Sunday.......yea, right!)

Dealers. Can't say enough about them. We can't do without them. They buy at the shows and they buy when there are no shows. They advertise the maker's products on the web and in knife mags. They are a big part of the knife business and those lucky enough to work with a dealer wouldn't do without them.

Have a nice day
AL P.
 
Al,
There are a lot of "No"s there!

I like the way you laid this out! Nice!

Maybe you should have a business card made up with all this "No" stuff on the back of it and hand them out to potential customers that come to your table.

Now you may tell me to go f--- myself!
EDITED TO ADD:
Al, you go to the show to sell, obviously.
Maybe its just that this thread has you fired up , but when I read your response, it seems that you have a degree of resentment toward the average show-goer. The "jerks" that twirl your knives and the "RWS's" that "fondle" your knives, but buy nothing and move on to the next table.
Again, it's probably just me reading this wrong, I hope!
 
Dang Al, I didn't realize that I was talking poo-poo. Thanks for straightening me out on that.

I had typed out a very serious post, but you know what, this thread is already too darn serious.

Shows will continue to operate in the way that they have been. Makers will do what they can to try to have a successful show. Customer, dealers and purveyors will look to get the knives they want in whatever way works for them. Life will go on.

One thing I will say though, I would never go back in subsequent years to a show where there was a bunch of makers that packed up and left on Saturday or early Sunday. I don't blame makers for doing this. It gives them the chance to get back to work making knives sooner than if they stayed until the end. I do however blame the people putting on the show for allowing this. Many people only have the weekend that they can attend a show and the show promoters should make sure that these people at least get the opportunity to talk to the makers that they came to see.
 
I agree with Keith. This thread has gotten a little too serious for my liking as well.

By the way, who is the a-hole that started this thread to begin with. Let's get him and string him up!:D

EDITED TO ADD:
Hey Keith, Go ahead and start another thread on makers that leave shows early. I'm right behind you, buddy!

JUST KIDDING!!!:D
 
Originally posted by RWS

Al, you go to the show to sell, obviously.
Maybe its just that this thread has you fired up , but when I read your response, it seems that you have a degree of resentment toward the average show-goer. The "jerks" that twirl your knives and the "RWS's" that "fondle" your knives, but buy nothing and move on to the next table.
Again, it's probably just me reading this wrong, I hope!
Click to expand...

Yes, I go to a show to sell. It's my job. I've been in this great business for 18 years, 15 years fulltime, and 15 years a member of the Knifemakers' Guild. Name one knifemaker who buys a table at a show and doesn't go there with the intention of selling...go ahead, name one.

So, you say I have a resentment toward the average showgoer? If I did, even a teensy-weensy little bit, I couldn't survive. Average showgoers keep me in business and I treat them as I would expect to be treated, no.....I treat them better, a lot better..

As for the twirlers and fondlers, I've seen it all. There are simple rules of etiquette for showgoers. These have been discussed on this and other forums. There are a small minority who couldn't care less about them.

As for the comment on putting NO on my business cards, you're just trying to be funny...right? I hope!

RWS, if you're ever at a show I attend, stop by and say hello. I invite you to sit with me behind my table for an hour or two, you handle showgoers on the right side, I'll take the left. You'll be surprised at some of the things you see.

Regards
Al P.
 
Al, your right I was trying to be funny!

As for your invitation to sit with you at your table, I'll pass on this one! No joke!
 
"Too serious" or not, this subject WILL be addressed in the future! This issue WILL NOT go away.

Jerry, why couldn't all shows be set up like the Reno or the Artknife Invitational? There have been years that the ARKANSAS show sucked for the average knife collector; meaning that the 1st two rows of makers (the biggest names) were sold out before the show started!!!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't bother me much because I don't buy knives very often...for me it's about the makers. FRIENDS. But, when I picture myself as one who had to fly, motel, taxi, etc. it puts it in a differant light.

Les, the dealers should buy like you do...meaning it's fairer to the general public.

If you are one of the unlucky ones...showing up at a show at the opening and there are no knives...wait a couple of weeks and see the show on someones web page!

Also, IT BLOWS MY MIND, that a "Big" name would sell their knives to a dealer at a DISCOUNT before the show ever opens. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!
 
Al, I don't envy anyone that has to sit behind a table at a knife show eight or more hours a day for three or four days . In my industry (Audio/video) I have worked over twenty consumer shows and it can be a mind numbing experience. I would however have no problem helping out behind the table at a knife show. Since I have never done one, it would be exciting.
 
Darby,
Some of my best customers are my dealers, and some of my best dealers are my customers. :rolleyes:

Keith,
Come to the Blade show and you are more than welcome to sit at my table with me. Course I don't sit there much. The loading dock is The place to be:) I aim for the Smoking customers..:)
 
Hi Darby,

Most dealers do not buy like me, because most don't run their business like I do.

While most "dealers" claim to be custom knife dealers, in fact they are not. Currently there are only about 1/2 dozen. Who only sell custom knives. Most of the better known "custom" knife dealers sell a wide variety of factory knives as well.

Now to narrow it even further, there are only two dealers in the US who set up at 5 or more shows a year and have a web site.

Myself and Bob Neal.

As for the "hot" makers selling before the show. With a lot of these makers, they are hot today and stone cold a year from now. So they need to sell them when they can.

I think you would find that those established makers who sell before the show. Generally, are selling to long term good customers. Most of these would be collectors as opposed to dealers.

If you a maker who is setting up at 3-6 shows a year. Selling the knife either before the show or at the show or even after the show is the important thing.

Ive brought this up a couple of times. If makers don't cover their expenses at shows, they don't come back. How many years do you go to a show that you lose money at?

Speaking of shows, one of the main problems today is that there are way to many 3 day shows.

The only show that should be 3 days is the Blade Show.

The buying patterns at shows today are:

First day, first 4 hours is when the majority of your sales will be. Especially for the established or hot makers. Most will have sold out by then. Note most of these makers are lucky to get 8-10 knives for a show.

Saturday 10 - 3 will be the next big buying period. For the most part at that point the show is over.

Sunday...forget about it. I seldom if ever stay till the end of the show. There is no reason.

Sunday's are now a dead day due in large part to two reasons:

1) Most of the serious buying is done on Friday. Collectors have figured that out and now have arragned their plans to be there the first day.

2) Sunday was habitually the day that the bargain hunters would come to the show. Seeking out those makers who had a bad show or need money. Asking for big discounts so the maker won't have to take home the knife.

Sunday selling to dealers such as my self and the Internet have really cut into that. When I am asked for a discount on Sunday. I smile and say "why would I do that? I will just put the knife on my web site."

As more and more makers get web sites, they too are less inclined to offer a discount.

With the realization of the vanashing Sunday discount. Many buyers have opted to just come on Saturday. When a knife they may really be interested in may still be there.

Take a 3 day show, remove Sunday. The promoter doesn't have to pay for the room, security or insurance. This will reduce the cost of the table fee. By reducing the cost of the show, maybe more makers will be less inclined to work with all those Nasty, Non-Table holding, cut in line dealers. :D
 
Hi Les, I think you have made some really good, clear posts on this thread. Thanks for your insight! I agree with you on just about all points except the last one regarding sundays.

If sunday is eliminated wont saturday afternoon just become the same thing as sunday? I think one aspect that makes sunday afternoon so dead at shows is the fact that many dealers / makerers pack up early and leave. Then the whole place starts to take on the air of a graveyard.

Some customers simply cant make it on friday or saturday for whatever reasons. So when they do come on sunday and the first thing they see is a half empty hall with people taking down booths, they get angry. After all you buy an entrance ticket at full price, you want the full show. If some guys are sold out, well that's one thing, but if the guys already packed up and left, well I've seen some pissed off customers.

I think shows should have a rule that booths must remain until the end of the show and that no exhibitors should be allowed to dismabtle their booth before the show officially closes. Whether thats saturday or sunday.
 
I agree with Les that most shows should be 2 day affairs. I don't think he's specifically saying toss out Sunday as he's saying toss out the third day. Imagine if the 3 day shows were held from Sat to Mon how bad that 3rd day would look. I think sensible promoters would have 2 day shows to be held on Sat and Sun to reach the most amount of showgoers. If shows are kept to Sat and Sun, you'd have less customers having to take a work day off in order to get in early before knives they want are gone.

The 2 NY shows I attend are 3 day affairs and I think what Les describes happening on the 3rd day (Sunday) pretty much holds true for them.
 
Hi Kevin,

One of the things that has occured since 9/11 is the reduction of flights by all the major airlines.

Consequently, your flight options are limited. For instance when I left the Spirit of Steel Show last Sunday I had three choices for times. Note, this is from Dallas to Atlanta.

The times were 2:28PM, 5:38 PM and 8:02

I chose the 2:28 PM. First there is the hour time difference. Getting into Hartsfield at 5:28, luggage didn't get there until 6:02. I car pooled with Bob Neal. By the time we got to the car and Bob's house it was 7PM, by the time I got home it was 9PM. Of course we had to leave the show two hours early (30-45 minute trip to the airport if there is no traffic or accidents). Turn in the rental car, be there an hour ahead of time to check in.

Note Bruce Voyles is attempting to move the show to a Hiton Hotel, five miles from the airport that has a shuttle. This will eliminate the need for a rental car and the need to leave 2 hours early. Bruce has listened to his table holders and has responded...Thanks Bruce.

So from the time I left the show until I got home it took me 8 1/2 hours.

If I had stayed until the show closed and caught the 8:02 flight. I would have gotten home at around 2:30AM.

Pre 9/11 there were around 20 flights a day between Atlanta and Dallas on Delta alone!

Next, yes some people cannot get to the show on Friday or Saturday...some not even on Sunday. Quite frankly if you are real knife Knut and you know when a show is 6-12 months out. You can adjust your schedule to be there. Things do happen...fortunately there are some excellent web sites out there!

Your next point:

"I think shows should have a rule that booths must remain until the end of the show and that no exhibitors should be allowed to dismabtle their booth before the show officially closes. Whether thats saturday or sunday."

Some shows have this, most don't enforce it. Why? Simple...if you expect me to stay until close, then you need to put customers through the door until close.

Seldom if ever does this happen. If the promoter tries to enforce it. You just stop going to that show and pick up one of the other 40 or so shows across the US.

As has been pointed out by RWS, there are a lot of dealers who don't even pay for a table. On occasion you will see makers at a show, without a table "Just visiting friends" ;)
 
The only all knife show I have ever attended was the Blade Show in Atlanta the past 2 years. Both times, I got knives I wanted from the makers by simply e-mailing or talking to them in advance.

I have found the only people who protest against "preferintial treatment" are the ones not getting it. If I can call a knifemaker/friend a couple of months before a show and find out what he will have and have him hold something for me, then I will definately do it. If I befriend makers and get a first peek at their wares the night before a show, I will do it as well.

Just like purveyors, collectors are there to get the knives they want as well. Setting up means to do so is part of collecting.

The makers I buy from most are people I consider friends. Kit Carson and Mike Obenauf have always treated me like a friend they have known their entire lives, and I am greatful for that. They have both bent over backwards for me at times when it was totally unnecessary.

My suggestion, worry about making friends first, the knives will eventually come. I currently own 9 Carsons and have owned close to that many others in the past, Out of those knives, I believe only 3 came directly from Kit. Two others, Kit had e-mailed me and set me up with a friend of his that needed to sell off part of his collection.

Kit went out of his way to help a friend, and I don't think words could appropriately describe the appreciation I felt and still feel.

WHile a big part of knife collecting is the knives, I bigger part is the friendships you develop. Make friends first, and let everything else fall into place.

JR
 
Hi Grapevine,

Thanks for the clarification. In fact I was only talking about elimnating Sunday if that was the 3rd day of a 3 day show.

If the show were only Saturday and Sunday I would try and stay as long as I could on Sunday.

The New York Custom Knife Show last Novemeber was a two day show and it rocked!

Traffic and sales were brisk both days. Bob Neal and I had the best combined show we had ever had...at any show.

Part of the reason, there was no Sunday. People made the effort to get there on Friday or Saturday. There werent the customers who walked the show aimlessly for three days.

Many hoping that someone would buy the knife they wanted so they didn't have to. That's right I have heard that logic more times than I can remember.

Another buying pattern for 3-day attendees' is to pick out 5 or 6 knives.
Then on Sunday buy the one that is left out of that group. Have others make your selection for you.

Here is another great Sunday story. As told to me by John W. Smith:

Several years ago he attended the NKCA show in Chattanooga TN. Friday a customer came by and asked the price of one of John's knives. John replied 375.

The customer nodded and walked away. John said he saw him again Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Most times he was across the aisle craning his neck to see if the knife had been sold.

Finally, near close on Sunday he came up to John's table. Asked if 375 was the best he could do. John explained yes, as he could either fill an order with the knife or put it on his web site.

With that the client smiled nodding his head. Took out his wallet and handed John a FIVE DOLLAR BILL and stood there waiting for change! :eek:

This guy spent 3 days agonizing over spending $3.75.

This is why I don't do gun shows any more. The last one I attended I had had a $750 Butch Vallotton Auto. That a customer after working me for a discount...with no luck. Handed me a TEN DOLLAR BILL and waited for change! :eek:

You would be amazed at the number of makers and dealers who have similar stories.

If Friday is the day for "Be-Back's"...you know those customers who say they will be back....and never come back. :(

Well then Sunday is the "whistling Gopher" day! :D

This occurs when a customer walks up to your table and asks "how much does this knife Go-Fer?"

You give them price and they look up and whistle..you know that whistle that indicates something is expensive. :D

The Whistling Gopher is becoming an endangered species mostly because of the Internet.

Collectors today are as well informed as they have ever been.

However, when you at the shows don't take the be-backs seriously (they will only break your heart).

When you see a Whistling Gopher, spend a little time with them and explain to them just why those makers are "so proud" (another term for too expensive. Look if your going to talk with the Gophers you have to learn the language) of those knives.

Man I love Knife Shows! :cool:
 
Hi Jeremy,

Where the hell have you been????

If yours would have been the post after the initial thread starter by RWS.

This thread would already be dead! :D
 
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