Compare & contrast; ATS34,BG42,D2,S30V,S110V,SG2,ZDP189

S

Stainz

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Jun 24, 2007
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Yeah, I know... it's like "Define the universe. Use 25 words or less.". Seriously, all of these blade steels - CPM154, 154CM, VG10, & even INFI as well - are thrown around as the latest greatest. What is the hardest and longest lasting edge - that won't easily chip? I seem to like S30V, personally - it lasts and isn't a new career to sharpen. What has the greatest 'bragging rights'? Thanks!

Stainz
 
*The following is partly based on pe and forum talk*

ATS34,BG42,D2,S30V,S110V,SG2,ZDP189

That's good list.

First there was ATS-34, made in Japan, used here. Stainless and an edge up from 440C. I find it easy to sharpen, and holds an edge pretty well.

154CM (CPM154 is a bit different, and above ATS-34) is made in america, and generally replaced the ATS-34 due to cost. It's a messy steel (ATS-34 is double vacuum melted) and has most of the same properties of ATS-34. I personally prefer ATS-34.

BG-42 was the before S30V. It was the "elite" steel in it's time (and still is considered by many). Hard to work with, high hardness, excellent edge holding, a bit brittle.

D2 is a non-stainless steel that was used in tool making. Great edge holding, but not something you'd want to abuse. High (61-62 Rc) hardness rating.

S110V I can't comment on. Never used it, not heard enough about it.

SG2 would be the same.

ZDP-189 is a steel containing large amounts of Chromium and Carbon (3% I think). This gives it very high hardness ratings, and excellent edge holding. Expensive and delicate, most companies initially layered it between another softer steel like 420JS.

S30V is considered the "premier" steel ATM. High levels of carbon, excellent edge holding, high hardness rating, and stainless to boot. It's now widely used as an "upgraded" steel option for some manufactures and used by higher end custom makers.

S90V is S30V on steroids. It's that much better. League of it's own.

VG-10 is just under S30V on somethings, but some people believe it's more corrosion resistant. It's exclusive to Japan (Seki made mostly). It is considered one of the "super steels".

440C is a good base steel for custom knife makers and people with not much sharpening experience. Easy to sharpen, holds an edge adequately, and is pretty corrosion resistant.

420HC I can't comment on because I'm unbelievably biased against it.

In terms of edge holding (lowest to highest):
420HC, 440C, 154CM, ATS-34, CPM154, VG-10, BG-42, S30V, D2, ZDP-189, S90V

In terms of ease of resharpening (highest to lowest):
S90V, ZDP-189, D2, BG-42, S30V, VG-10, CPM154, 154CM, ATS-34, 440C, 420HC

Tad over 25 words, and correct me if any information I provided was inaccurate. I try my best. ;)
 
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What I am confused on is what is the edge holding difference between a high-end stainless and a "carbon" steel? There's always the "what's better" threads when it comes to stainless steels but whenever I see a thread about carbon steel, there's always the statement of "a good carbon steel will beat whatever soft stainless flashy steel-of-of-the-month they have on the market." So where does a steel like 1095 compare to S30V with edge holding?
 
Squeezymo,

I'm not sure about the specifics (especially 1095 vs S30V), but my understanding is that a carbon steel will, having more carbon, be a good performer at the expense of being more likely to rust.

A stainless steel, in comparison, is less likely to rust but is softer/duller/weaker etc. because it lacks as much carbon.

Premium steels try to have the best of both (hence the cost increase). Of course, each of these compromises have their own merits and unique characteristics.

So S30V and 1095 are probably close in overall cutting performance compared to 420 stainless but S30V would have a much better resistance to rust than the 1095.
 
chipped said:
Squeezymo,

I'm not sure about the specifics (especially 1095 vs S30V), but my understanding is that a carbon steel will, having more carbon, be a good performer at the expense of being more likely to rust.

A stainless steel, in comparison, is less likely to rust but is softer/duller/weaker etc. because it lacks as much carbon.

Premium steels try to have the best of both (hence the cost increase). Of course, each of these compromises have their own merits and unique characteristics.

So S30V and 1095 are probably close in overall cutting performance compared to 420 stainless but S30V would have a much better resistance to rust than the 1095.
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So rust really is the only issue? I mean I understand the implication of corrosion resistance, and how you can lose an edge with a blade just sitting there, but otherwise stainless steels are really that much softer?

In addition why on spyderco's website: http://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=3 It has a steel such as CPM 3V, with only .80% carbon, as opposed to say, ATS-34 which is at 1.05% ? Wouldn't that make ATS-34 harder and better with edge holding (assuming the same geometry, etc...)? But it still is considered stainless and isn't CPM 3V carbon?

Another example: A2 with 1.00% carbon vs. CPM S30V with 1.45%.

So what really is separating these steels? I just want to know strictly edge holding, which would be better assuming the same blade? What makes stainless "softer" if the carbon content is supposedly considerably more?
 
Squeezymo said:
What I am confused on is what is the edge holding difference between a high-end stainless and a "carbon" steel? There's always the "what's better" threads when it comes to stainless steels but whenever I see a thread about carbon steel, there's always the statement of "a good carbon steel will beat whatever soft stainless flashy steel-of-of-the-month they have on the market." So where does a steel like 1095 compare to S30V with edge holding?
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More carbon, more edge holding. Few people will claim that 1095 will out cut ATS-34 or S30V. Stainless steels are not considered "soft" by any means. Strictly terms of edge holding? I haven't done any tests, but I plan on getting a RC-5 when it's released (OD Orange please!). 1095 makes a great knife steel because it holds an edge well (similar to 440C I think) and is also very flexible and resilient to abuse.
 
It's not just corrosion resistance. The carbon steels are generally tougher than the stainless steels. So Smaller blades are stainless steel and D2 territory. Larger choppers and rough use knives tend to be high carbon ( 5160, 52100, 10XX,M2, M4 etc...) Also none of this means anything without factoring in the heat treat, which is uber important.
I love BG-42, VG-10, CPM154CM, but wouldn't feel bad about keeping hagh carbon knives rust free. BTW stainless doesn't mean rust free, it means STAINS LESS.
 
Squeezymo said:
So rust really is the only issue? I mean I understand the implication of corrosion resistance, and how you can lose an edge with a blade just sitting there, but otherwise stainless steels are really that much softer?

In addition why on spyderco's website: http://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=3 It has a steel such as CPM 3V, with only .80% carbon, as opposed to say, ATS-34 which is at 1.05% ? Wouldn't that make ATS-34 harder and better with edge holding (assuming the same geometry, etc...)? But it still is considered stainless and isn't CPM 3V carbon?

Another example: A2 with 1.00% carbon vs. CPM S30V with 1.45%.

So what really is separating these steels? I just want to know strictly edge holding, which would be better assuming the same blade? What makes stainless "softer" if the carbon content is supposedly considerably more?
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To answer the first part "softness" is kind of an all round thing - blades can't get as sharp, stay sharp as long, etc. Some lower-grade stainless steels can get decently sharp and stay that way for a while, but there's a range of performance depending on exactly the kind of steel you use. 440C stainless is a generally better stainless than 420 or 440A, and performance increases (again, generally, some steels are better for one thing than another like slicing vs. toughness) as you move up in price. A lot of people here like VG-10 and S30V as good balances of price, edge taking and holding, toughness, rust resistance, and sharpenability (i.e. not so hard that it's tough to resharpen). A very high grade stainless could be very comparable to a carbon steel but you pay more because it is more rust resistant.

As for the second part, it seems that with these so-called "premium" steels in knives that part of the trick in gaining strength and corrosion resistance is through chemical or metallurgical tricks that are more complicated than simply the amount of carbon in steel. I don't really know enough specifics to elaborate more.
 
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I'd be willing to bet most, if not all, forum members would not be able to tell any difference between any of the steels listed in the OP if it were possible to come up with a set of identical blades in those different steels. They're all pretty high end.
 
You're going to be quite limited as long as you are trying to rank them as far as ranking from best to worst. When we are talking about high quality steels, they are going to be different, but there is no best steel.
 
fudo said:
It's not just corrosion resistance. The carbon steels are generally tougher than the stainless steels. So Smaller blades are stainless steel and D2 territory. Larger choppers and rough use knives tend to be high carbon ( 5160, 52100, 10XX,M2, M4 etc...) Also none of this means anything without factoring in the heat treat, which is uber important.
I love BG-42, VG-10, CPM154CM, but wouldn't feel bad about keeping hagh carbon knives rust free. BTW stainless doesn't mean rust free, it means STAINS LESS.
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I've set a medium carbon knife in a box for two weeks, and took it out to discover lots of surface rust, and some pitting.

I've kept S30V and VG-10 knives, stored wet at the bottom of my backpack for almost a year, and no rust at all. That's pretty stainless, but I'm sure you could get it to rust. Rust free is like H1.

shecky said:
I'd be willing to bet most, if not all, forum members would not be able to tell any difference between any of the steels listed in the OP if it were possible to come up with a set of identical blades in those different steels. They're all pretty high end.
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I think you could tell between ZDP and 154, those steels cover a good size range of edge retention.
 
See my edge retention test results here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=589139

I think I cover all this steels - but it depends on heat treatment, some manufacturers better some not. It is limited to 200 cuts of 1/2" Manila rope, you may decide for yourself how big this load is.

1. Dozier heat treated D2.
2. Yuna Hard II ZDP-189 (second run)
3. SwampRat SR101 (52100)
4. Spyderco Mule CPM M4
5. KaBar Dozier D2
6. J.P.Holmes CPM 10V
7. Buck BG42
8. Buck CPM154
9. Yuna Hard II ZDP189
10. Buck CPM S30V
11. Kershaw CPM S110V
12. Fehrman R3V (CPM 3V)
13. G-Sakai SRS15
14. Kershaw CPM S30V
15. Buck 420HC
16. Busse INIFI
17. Benchmade M2
18. Ivan Kirpichev Bulat (wootz)
19. Kiku Matsuda OU31
20. Diamond Knives Friction Forged D2.
21. Kershaw Sandvic 1326
22. Fallkniven 3G (SGPS)
23. RosArms 110x18
24. CRKT AUS8
25. Kershaw SG2
26. Benchmade D2

Thanks, Vassili.
 
ZDP-189 wins on hardness, but S110V is the most wear resistant steel on the market, with proper heat treat it shouldn't chip any more than S30V.
 
Joshua J. said:
ZDP-189 wins on hardness, but S110V is the most wear resistant steel on the market, with proper heat treat it shouldn't chip any more than S30V.
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I would say it is most abrasive steel in the market - I was not able to make it whittle hair yet! Green Rouge does not work - Niobium and Cobalt Carbides just make it sharpening steel or something! I am wondering if I can use it for stropping?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
I would say it is most abrasive steel in the market - I was not able to make it whittle hair yet! Green Rouge does not work - Niobium and Cobalt Carbides just make it sharpening steel or something! I am wondering if I can use it for stropping?

Thanks, Vassili.
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Diamond paste. :thumbup:
 
Well, in my opinion, and experience....ZDP-189 is the hardest, due to it Cobalt/Carbon content, but has alot to be desired in the corrosion aspect. CPM-S30V is the best over all for me, along with S90V; But, I've been carrying my new Spyderco Para/D2 for about a month every day, and I've touched it up once, and I've heard some say in SpyderForums, that it holds a sharper edge longer than S30V, so we'll see:D
 
edge holding can be from wear resistance or from numerous other factors, it depends on what you're cutting and how. this is a lengthy rabbit hole with lots of twists and turns.

adamantium is probably pretty close to the top though
 
ginaz said:
edge holding can be from wear resistance or from numerous other factors, it depends on what you're cutting and how. this is a lengthy rabbit hole with lots of twists and turns.

adamantium is probably pretty close to the top though
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yea, grindability, wear resistance, edge holding, chipping, sharpendability, and flexibility.

by the by, how do you machine, grind, sharpen adamantium?;);):D
 
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