Compare & contrast; ATS34,BG42,D2,S30V,S110V,SG2,ZDP189

[Josh K]

as i said, s30v and s90v are both brittle steels that will chip without a proper heat treat. i have seen several spyderco s30v knives including the sage chip with practical use, and i personally think spyderco does a very fine job heat treating their knives. brittleness is just an inherent trait of the s30v family. by increasing the carbon content of the blade you are also increasing the brittleness of the blade as well so because s90v has more carbon that s30v, it is more brittle, and because s110v contains even more carbon still, it will be more brittle. because i believe s30v to be sufficiently robust, and s90v to be borderline too brittle, i should think that s110v would be too brittle for my taste. but as with d2, im sure for some people the edge retention will eclipse the brittleness

That probably isn't a brittleness issue, it's probably due to over heating the edge when putting it on at the factory. Sharpen it a couple times and you shouldn't have any more "chips". Sure S30/90V are more brittle then say, RAT's 1095 (bend 30 degrees with no breakedge.), but they have tons more edge retention. It's a knife, not a pry bar.

 

[SOLEIL]

Walleye,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Yours is based solely on supposition and your personal tastes. Fortunately it is not reality. Properly made S110V and D2 is not brittle by any sense of the word for use in knives. It may be a good idea for you to use these steels extensively before making such broad statements. I own many knives in S30V and have never had a chipping problem. The makers of these products spend millions producing, perfecting and marketing them. What do you think are doing wrong based on your experience?

 

[nozh2002]

We've pretty much used the entire spectrum of exotics, and I can tell you we shouldn't stop till it's perfect.

Not entire - you are not using CPM M4 and as I understand you are not planing to use it (as well as CPM S90V).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Thomas W]

Not entire - you are not using CPM M4 and as I understand you are not planing to use it (as well as CPM S90V).

Thanks, Vassili.

Well, I did preface it with "pretty much".

Oh, there are those S90V MIM Offset blades in my office, and those M4 Composite Blades in R&D that were still playing with.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Stainz, I have been thinking of doing a rack up and some simple descriptions of the steels I use to put up on my web site so your question is timely and it is too cold to work in the shop today, so here goes. This ranking is based on knives with similar geometry and is based on edge holding cutting 5/8 inch diameter manila rope with correlation back to field experience. I have posted my test method several times before this. Hardness governs up to the point where the blade is too brittle and the thin edge cracks away. Numbers below are optimum hardness values that have provided adequate bending strength to not roll or chip cutting rope or whittling fir. These have been proven to be good values for field dressing, skinning and fillet knife work. Also great for the kitchen.

CPM 125V (64/65)
CPM 10V (63/64)
CPM S90V (61), ZDP 189 (66),
CPM S-30V (61), CPM 154(62), BG42(62)
D2 (60), ATS 34/154CM (61)

Corrosion resistance on all of the above except D2 is adequate for fillet knives used around salt water as long as the knives are cleaned after use. D2 is marginal in cold salt water but will rust while you are looking at it in tropical conditions. D2 is fine for hunter utility work as long as the knife is cleaned after use.

The ZDP rank is based on one knife. The steel is hard to get except for expensive ground bar stock. I took this knife on a fishing trip to Alaska and used it for some fillet work and general carry. I had no corrosion issues with this use. Edge holding was great as well, seemed like close to S90V but not so much better in field use than S30v or CPM 154 to warrant the extra expense. I will leave this one to guys like Spyderco, they have it down good.

CPM S30V and CPM 154 are close in performance in actual field use. CPM S30v does have an edge (pun). I find I can harden CPM 154 to a little higher value and that offsets the larger carbide content in S-30V. S30V at RC61 provides a nice balance for edge holding and toughness.

In the past, I made many D2 knives. I liked the nice grabby cutting edge. There is D2 and there is D2. If you can standardize on a supplier that has consistent metallurgy and get the heat treat right then it makes a great hunter and many love it for that application. I find that I have better results with 154Cm and can get it in sheet stock in the thickness I use. Both 154Cm and ATS34 are sensitive to heat treat. It is best hardened to 61 but most times, it is found 58/59.

CPM 154 seems to be excellent balanced steel. At higher hardness, it has adequate toughness for all tasks except chopping. It is a little easier to grind and polish that all the others above and is a great all around steel. If I were limited to one steel, this would be it for me.

CPM S90V is full of very hard carbides so wear resistance and edge holding are its best points. It is a challenge to grind and finish. The carbides that give it great edge holding also resist finish work. It is best at RC 61 but it takes very high heat in the hear treat furnace and a subzero to get it there. For this reason, many custom guys and heat treaters avoid it.

CPM 10V has always given me great performance in both shop testing and field work. It is not stainless, a little worse than D2 so that limits the use somewhat. Like CPM S90v it eats belts and is tough to get a good finish on it.

CPM 125V is at the top of the list for edge holding and corrosion resistance. A great combination. I have some of it and have been trying to offer it for a high-end hunter utility use. I was on a roll for a while but recently have had several finished blades break after a lot of work and expended abrasives. I have pretty much given up on it at this point.

CPM 110V is new to me. I now have one bar to try out and if I can get the heat treat down and get good results with testing I will try to get more of it.

I made several BG42 knives and found it to be about the same performance as 154CM. The CPM product is less expensive and is available in sheet stock which makes it a better choice for my fabrication methods.

Blade performance is very dependent on sharpening ,geometry and heat treating so my opinions and results may not be the same as others.

Hope this helps some,, Phil

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

I haven't seen any initial reports of those using S110V coming in with edges chipping out, or complaints of brittleness.

Is this just speculation on your part based on S110V's composition, or is it your perception/reality based off of other Crucible steels (S30V, S60V, S90V}? Have you in fact run into brittleness issues with S110V?

I haven't run into any chipping issues with the Shallot and my friend hasn't either. I'm not sure whats going on there but I think you would be hearing about it if there was an issue.

 

[nozh2002]

My results is Dozier D2 (not any other D2 but fro Dozier only!), ZDP 189 and SRS101 on top in whittling hair edge holding. Of course if initial sharpness different they may act differently. I can imagine that for less sharp edge high abrasive CPM steels will show better performance in long run - I just like very sharp edges. In my case CPM 10V, CPM S30V and CPM S110V were behind a little bit. But it also depends on manufacturer - like Buck have in general better performance for same steel.

Also it was formal testes not field tests.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

My results is Dozier D2 (not any other D2 but fro Dozier only!), ZDP 189 and SRS101 on top in whittling hair edge holding. Of course if initial sharpness different they may act differently. I can imagine that for less sharp edge high abrasive CPM steels will show better performance in long run - I just like very sharp edges. In my case CPM 10V, CPM S30V and CPM S110V were behind a little bit. But it also depends on manufacturer - like Buck have in general better performance for same steel.

Also it was formal testes not field tests.

Thanks, Vassili.

I'm a huge fan of Dozier. I have 3 Dozier knives and can see more in the future.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Vassili, Well we are back with the same discussion. I got a chuckle from your post. Not sure whether my testes are formal or informal. I have been trying to correlate the results of the rope cutting I do with the use of the same blade in the field. For example if a knife I make will do 150 or so cuts on 5/8 rope with less than 20 lbs on the scale-- will it dress and skin an elk with out sharpening. That's what I mean by field testing. I of course do not sharpen to hair whittling sharp. So yes, that can give different results between what our tests show. I can list probably 20 other differences as well.In any case carry on, I always find your posts interesting. Phil

 

[Squeezymo]

This was an interesting early real world review on S110V.


Although I have read and personally seen some edge chipping (on one knife (out of thousands)) with S30V. We as a company haven't seen this to be a problem with Crucible steels in general.

HT doesn't just stop with Crucible steels. Obviously if a steel gets a bad HT, it doesn't matter what it is, it's gonna be wrong and will have issues.

I'm also not at a point to be content with the current line up with high end blade steel. Although they all have their strengths and weaknesses, there is always room for improvement. We've pretty much used the entire spectrum of exotics, and I can tell you we shouldn't stop till it's perfect.

I haven't had any chipping problems with my Kershaw Blur in S30V. I did chip the edge once but it happened in my pocket when a coin fell in between the liners, so it was my negligence. I have used this knife harder than any of my other folders and it still remains my favorite knife. I just love the design!

thanks Thomas!

 

[Buzzbait]

Not sure whether my testes are formal or informal.

 

[Razzierb]

Push the other properties aside that have been discussed at length earlier in the thread, but I like the blade lustre you can develop with a nicely finished ATS-34 and AUS-10 blade steel. Very nice looking as that sort of thing goes.