Comparison of CPM M4 HC, ZDP-189, M390, and S30V edge retention

This is an awesome thread:thumbup:
Thanks much for the excellent report. I'm looking forward to the following:
...for a long time it's been clear that edge geometry is more important than alloy. I'm not sure if that is still clear to me. I can't help wondering if a blunter blade of M390 might not outcut a blade with better geometry, but lesser alloy. A battle for another day, I think
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knarfeng said:
Thanks to all for the kind comments.



The laminated steel, in and of itself, should not affect the edge retention because the central core of ZPD-189 is what would contact the rope and show the wear.

However, the performance could easily be affected by the hardness of the ZPD-189 core. The solid ZPD-189 blade that I tested had to be tempered to a hardness at which there is some toughness to the steel. In a laminated blade, toughness comes from the outer layers of softer steel, so the central core could be heat treated to a higher hardness and give better edge retention.

So your laminated ZDP-189 blade might have performed better than the one I tested, though I don't think it would reach the performance level of the CPM M4 HS or the M390.
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Thanks once again for the insight Sir :thumbup:
 
STR said:
Very nice Frank. I can't help but wonder how the M390 would have faired if it was just a bit harder. At 62 it may have have won out over the others and M4.

STR
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At 64 RC the M4 might still be there with the M390 as well, though. Of course, the M390 is stainless and should require less maintenance to keep the blade from rusting and pitting. I know from experience CPM M4 gets extremely sharp, but from recent testing and videos it looks like M390 takes a great edge as well. Both are great steels with some impressive edge retention. I really need to get some M390 and test it out myself.

Mike
 
gunmike1 said:
At 64 RC the M4 might still be there with the M390 as well, though. Of course, the M390 is stainless and should require less maintenance to keep the blade from rusting and pitting. I know from experience CPM M4 gets extremely sharp, but from recent testing and videos it looks like M390 takes a great edge as well. Both are great steels with some impressive edge retention. I really need to get some M390 and test it out myself.

Mike
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Same here. I have M4 and must admit I really am happy with it, however if you want to dull it pretty quick cut up some oranges and tomatoes and you'll see it go down pretty quick after a while. Takes a couple swipes on the Sharpmaker to bring it right back up to snuff though.

STR
 
STR said:
Very nice Frank. I can't help but wonder how the M390 would have faired if it was just a bit harder. At 62 it may have have won out over the others and M4.

STR
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gunmike1 said:
At 64 RC the M4 might still be there with the M390 as well, though. Of course, the M390 is stainless and should require less maintenance to keep the blade from rusting and pitting. I know from experience CPM M4 gets extremely sharp, but from recent testing and videos it looks like M390 takes a great edge as well. Both are great steels with some impressive edge retention. I really need to get some M390 and test it out myself.

Mike
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I agree with both of you. I don't have enough data points (blades at different hardnesses) to have an opinion. Jim (Ankerson) has a Phil Wilson M390 Blade hardened to a 62. I think he may also have used an M390 blade hardened to 60. He would be in a better place to have an opinion.

STR said:
Same here. I have M4 and must admit I really am happy with it, however if you want to dull it pretty quick cut up some oranges and tomatoes and you'll see it go down pretty quick after a while. Takes a couple swipes on the Sharpmaker to bring it right back up to snuff though.

STR
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You raise a good point. I am aware of M4's reputation for lack of rust resistance. I was most careful to keep everything dry. In the real world, that is not always possible. That could make a difference in real-world use.
 
Thank you, both Frank and Dennis, for making the comparisons available to the BF members, it is much appreciated!

Al
 
Thanks for the time and effort doing these posts.
 
In real world, non-fruit cutting I have had excellent performance from CPM M4, I just try to wipe it down if it gets wet. On a hunting trip where it is raining it could be easy to inadvertantly get the knife wet and have the edge go bye bye without a cut, though I haven't had that problem. If M390 is anywhere close to as easy to sharpen as M4 then I think it will be great stuff to use; having M4 edge retention in a stainless package that is easily sharpened (in super steel terms, I do realize some people think M4 is a bear to sharpen) sounds like a real good thing to me. Hopefully I can get the money together to get myself a Phil Wilson custom soon so I can see the maximum performance of M390 for myself.

Mike
 
gunmike1 said:
In real world, non-fruit cutting I have had excellent performance from CPM M4, I just try to wipe it down if it gets wet. On a hunting trip where it is raining it could be easy to inadvertantly get the knife wet and have the edge go bye bye without a cut, though I haven't had that problem. If M390 is anywhere close to as easy to sharpen as M4 then I think it will be great stuff to use; having M4 edge retention in a stainless package that is easily sharpened (in super steel terms, I do realize some people think M4 is a bear to sharpen) sounds like a real good thing to me. Hopefully I can get the money together to get myself a Phil Wilson custom soon so I can see the maximum performance of M390 for myself.

Mike
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THAT would be worth reading. I look forward to your post.
 
gunmike1 said:
In real world, non-fruit cutting I have had excellent performance from CPM M4, I just try to wipe it down if it gets wet. On a hunting trip where it is raining it could be easy to inadvertantly get the knife wet and have the edge go bye bye without a cut, though I haven't had that problem. If M390 is anywhere close to as easy to sharpen as M4 then I think it will be great stuff to use; having M4 edge retention in a stainless package that is easily sharpened (in super steel terms, I do realize some people think M4 is a bear to sharpen) sounds like a real good thing to me. Hopefully I can get the money together to get myself a Phil Wilson custom soon so I can see the maximum performance of M390 for myself.

Mike
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Ankerson is going to send you mine when he's done testing it. Wait until then to get an idea of what you want from Phil, it's always better after you've used one.
 
knarfeng said:
THAT would be worth reading. I look forward to your post.
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Yeah after he gets out of the Hospital from the heart attack from the shock of seeing how much better it is. :eek:
 
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Ankerson said:
Yeah after he gets out of the Hospital from the heart attack from the shock of seeing how much better it is. :eek:
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It may give me a heart attack, but it is worth the risk! My Krein Ultimate Caper is in CPM M4 at 63 RC with a full height hollow grind to a .007" edge, that should provide good comparing with a Wilson. I know Paul Bos did a good heat treat on my Krein, but I think Phil Wilson definately could have pushed the limits more. The Ultimate Caper is a tremendous cutter, but it is a bit small and I think a 3.75"-4" Wilson would be a better knife for all around hunting use as it gives you more handle and more edge to use. Knowing Phil's grinds it won't sacrafice much in cutting performance to the smaller Ultimate Caper, and it the full flat grind should make it a tad stronger than the Caper. M390 really has me emailers right now, but Sodak's 10V Wilson might sway me. I am getting the C20P Para, which I believe is the same formula as M390 (possibly not as clean or as fine a grain as the Bohler steel though), so maybe I can see if I like 10V or the C20P better before ordering my knife from Phil. Even if I love the 10V I may get the Bohler version of it from Phil for the slightly better toughness and finer grain compared to the CPM steel. Whatever I get from Phil Wilson I'm sure it will blow my mind. Knives designed from the ground up for the ultimate in cutting performance with no compromises have a way of doing that.

Mike
 
gunmike1 said:
It may give me a heart attack, but it is worth the risk! My Krein Ultimate Caper is in CPM M4 at 63 RC with a full height hollow grind to a .007" edge, that should provide good comparing with a Wilson. I know Paul Bos did a good heat treat on my Krein, but I think Phil Wilson definately could have pushed the limits more. The Ultimate Caper is a tremendous cutter, but it is a bit small and I think a 3.75"-4" Wilson would be a better knife for all around hunting use as it gives you more handle and more edge to use. Knowing Phil's grinds it won't sacrafice much in cutting performance to the smaller Ultimate Caper, and it the full flat grind should make it a tad stronger than the Caper. M390 really has me emailers right now, but Sodak's 10V Wilson might sway me. I am getting the C20P Para, which I believe is the same formula as M390 (possibly not as clean or as fine a grain as the Bohler steel though), so maybe I can see if I like 10V or the C20P better before ordering my knife from Phil. Even if I love the 10V I may get the Bohler version of it from Phil for the slightly better toughness and finer grain compared to the CPM steel. Whatever I get from Phil Wilson I'm sure it will blow my mind. Knives designed from the ground up for the ultimate in cutting performance with no compromises have a way of doing that.

Mike
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The C20P Para is Carpenters vers of S90V.

CTS 204P is their vers of M390.

When I said it was .010 that was a close as I could measure it with my calipers, it's less than that I am sure.
 
Ankerson said:
The C20P Para is Carpenters vers of S90V.

CTS 204P is their vers of M390.

When I said it was .010 that was a close as I could measure it with my calipers, it's less than that I am sure.
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Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure Phil's knife is paper thin, and being a full flat grind the spine thickess toward the tip is probably as thin as the needle tip on my Krein. On shallow slicing the high hollow grind is great, but the full flat grind on Phil's knives should be almost as efficient as the high hollow grind on shallow slicing and better on full depth cuts and more robust overall, though you certainly wouldn't want to pry with it. I can't wait to try out a Wilson knife to compare and contrast with everything else I've cut with.

Mike
 
Once again, Knarfeng, your work is much appreciated. I prefer comparative tests and yours are one of the best ones here.
 
Great post, thank you for sharing this information. On a side note, do you know how CPM-M4 and M390 compare in toughness? I know that M4 is very tough, but I haven't heard anything about M390.
 
From my experience, M4 is easier to sharpen than M390. Actually, it seems to be whole lot easier.
Thanks for the testing and results. Keep up the good work.
I am VERY excited to see if the new carpenter's steels will perform as good as expected, they seem to pretty promising at this stage.
 
Benchmade or Spyderco or other?

Razorsharp1986 said:
From my experience, M4 is easier to sharpen than M390. Actually, it seems to be whole lot easier.
Thanks for the testing and results. Keep up the good work.
I am VERY excited to see if the new carpenter's steels will perform as good as expected, they seem to pretty promising at this stage.
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