Complete history of Bowie knife

marcinek said:
Give that man a cigar. :thumbup:

The knife Jim used on the sandbar was the Forrest Knife. Designed or commissioned by Rezin and made by Cliff.

Drops mic.
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Except that the "Forrest Knife" has a 12 inch blade. So unless someone developed a "metal stretcher" between 1827 and 1834, the "Forrest Knife" is NOT the Sandbar Fight knife.

Picks up mike and exits stage right (just cause he's a rebel and never exits left). :D:D

and it's CLIFT not CLIFF. :D Common misconception. The only known signature of Jesse Clift was as a witness on the sale of 9 slaves by Rezin Bowie in 1827, shortly before Mr Clift decamped for Texas.
 
the one that fits the description is the searles. 1 1/2 wide 9 1/4 long, straight not curved. (I am a rebel too so see ya stage RIGHT)
 
In reading about "Jim's knife", all the accounts of the "original" indicate that it was a very plain looking knife, but that the sheath Jim carried was a "silver mounted black leather sheath", what-ever the heck "silver mounted" means.

There were a lot of accounts about what happened to the "original" Bowie knife, ranging from "Jim had it at the Alamo". to he took it back to the Bowie Plantation and gave it to his nieces/nephews, to he lost it/gave it away/had it modified/sold it, or my favorite, lost it in a poker game.

Rezin, on the other hand, was known for having knives made as "presentation knives" to be given away on various occasions.

My own personal theory, with zero documentation to back it up, is that Jim if he had not lost or misplaced the knife in some manner, then he had it with him at the Alamo.

A couple of things that my theory is based on--

1) His brother made it or had it made for him. There would have been a lot of sentimental attachment to the knife for that reason.

2) The knife was the one that made him "famous" at the Sandbar Fight and he would have kept it for bragging purposes.

My assumption is that since he probably had it at the Alamo, one of 3 things happened to it -

1) burned with him and the bodies of all the others killed at the Alamo
2) picked up by a Mexican soldier, who then carried it until he lost it, had it stolen, was killed, was captured at San Jacinto and had it taken from him, or took it back to Mexico with him and subsequently lost to history
3) flat lost in the dirt and debris of the destruction at the Alamo.

Overall, anytime someone says that "they" have Jim Bowie's Alamo knife, I just laugh and think "Yep, there's another sucker who's been separated from his money." Including the one that Phil Collins donated (along with a lot of other alleged "Alamo related artifacts").
 
zzyzzogeton said:
Including the one that Phil Collins donated (along with a lot of other alleged "Alamo related artifacts").
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With the inclusion of Phil Collins, this thread has officially jumped the shark. :D

[video=youtube;t4ZGKI8vpcg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ZGKI8vpcg[/video]
 
silver mounted was a common sheath in that time, it had silver decorative banding at the top and bottom usually wooden with a thin leather covering. made to fit on a frog to be taken off the belt when riding on a stage or train.
 
kn4wd said:
silver mounted was a common sheath in that time, it had silver decorative banding at the top and bottom usually wooden with a thin leather covering. made to fit on a frog to be taken off the belt when riding on a stage or train.
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sandbar%20bowie%202.jpg
 
I love the fact that the original Bowie knife was basically and 8in chef/carving knife and that popular culture of that time later defined it as the clip point, full hilt knife we see today.

Haha like the tales of Kit Carson
 
I think the Bowie style designs probably proceeded just like knife designs do today. Various blade shapes and handle materials/styles appeared on large butcher-style knives. Then the aggressive clip point eventually gets thrown into the mix and it turns into a phenomenon like today's Spyderco PM2--a knife that grows in status and popularity due to its shape, style, looks, and cutting ability etc..This leads to demand and desirability etc and a particular design takes on cult status and is highly sought after. A hundred years from now, people might be debating the origins of the Paramilitary 2 and creating legends about it. What individual really designed it? Who first used it in a fight?
 
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BubbaGump said:
I think the Bowie style designs probably proceeded just like knife designs do today. Various blade shapes and handle materials/styles appeared on large butcher-style knives. Then the aggressive clip point eventually gets thrown into the mix and it turns into a phenomenon like today's Spyderco PM2--a knife that grows in status and popularity due to its shape, style, looks, and cutting ability etc.....
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Bowie knives became a phenomenon almost immediately after story of the sandbar spread....long before Thorpe spoke to James Black from beyond the grave and decided that the original sandbar knife had an "aggressive clip" in the 1940s-ish.

But you are 110% on about the "style" thing...it has always been about style.
 
BubbaGump said:
I think the Bowie style designs probably proceeded just like knife designs do today. Various blade shapes and handle materials/styles appeared on large butcher-style knives. Then the aggressive clip point eventually gets thrown into the mix and it turns into a phenomenon like today's Spyderco PM2--a knife that grows in status and popularity due to its shape, style, looks, and cutting ability etc..This leads to demand and desirability etc and a particular design takes on cult status and is highly sought after. A hundred years from now, people might be debating the origins of the Paramilitary 2 and creating legends about it. What individual really designed it? Who first used it in a fight?
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The knife we call the clip-point bowie with double quillon was already in use before the beguinning of the 19th century.
It would certainly be interesting to know when it first appeared.


Regards
Mikael
 
Mikael W said:
The knife we call the clip-point bowie with double quillon was already in use before the beguinning of the 19th century.
It would certainly be interesting to know when it first appeared.


Regards
Mikael
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As was the punal, which goes back to the 18th century, and the Mediterranean dagger, which goes back even further.

Read about punales here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

Look familiar? :)
 
Mikael W said:
Good link and interesting reading, but not looking like the Peterson clip-point knife showed on page 26 in Flayderman's book.


Regards
Mikael
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Exactly my point! I think the clip point has little (to nothing) to do with the knives the Bowies owned. As you say, the "clip-point bowie with double quillon was already in use before the beginning of the 19th century" (though I guess you cant call them Bowies! :)).

I just dont think they were the inspiration for for the Bowies' knives. I suspect punales were.
 
marcinek said:
Exactly my point! I think the clip point has little (to nothing) to do with the knives the Bowies owned. As you say, the "clip-point bowie with double quillon was already in use before the beginning of the 19th century" (though I guess you cant call them Bowies! :)).

I just dont think they were the inspiration for for the Bowies' knives. I suspect punales were.
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The Spanish and French cultures probably had a lot of influence, on how the knives turned out for the Bowie's.


Regards
Mikael
 
Mikael W said:
The Spanish and French cultures probably had a lot of influence, on how the knives turned out for the Bowie's.


Regards
Mikael
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Definitely. I have a French damascus bladed hunting knife from circa early 1800's that for all intents and purposes is an ideal bowie. Also a French folding bowie with damascus blade from circa mid 1800's.

Rich
 
the no clip resembles the Spanish beldique more than an other. mostly a larger size beldique.
 
Rich S said:
Definitely. I have a French damascus bladed hunting knife from circa early 1800's that for all intents and purposes is an ideal bowie. Also a French folding bowie with damascus blade from circa mid 1800's.

Rich
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Nice!
Any pic's?


Regards
Mikael
 
I have a couple of pics of mine I would like to post but I cant post them here, anyone want to post for me? some of my best work. a pair of searles style bowies working on scabbard for the one finished and one larger and fancier guard under construction.the finished is to scale the unfinished a good bit larger.if someone here wants to post them or see them I can send pics thru email.
 
So basically the Bowie was like the rambo knife of the 1800s. I suppose every kid grew up hearing about Jim Bowie and the alamo looking at the local blacksmiths interpretation of the "Bowie Knife". Kind if like kids in the 80s looking through soldier of fortune and coveting the rambo inspired knives through out the book.
 
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