Cooling off period for customers

The good news is, people flat-out changing their minds doesn't seem to happen all that often. Assuming, as the others said, that there are no actual quality/craftsmanship issues, I think it's the buyer's responsibility to sell it to someone else. The exchange here is full of nice knives that people bought and either enjoyed for a while and simply decided to move on from, or they decided they wanted to try something else instead.

How are returns handled in the customs/one-off scene?

For customs, I don't even turn on the grinder until a client has signed off on a complete measured drawing and agreed to my quote. That's a very simple form of contract. If my work matches the drawing he approved, I get paid and he's got a great new knife that's just what he wants. It's really no different than proofing a print job or building a house.

Occasionally people will give me very basic parameters to fill ("make me a filet knife in XYZ steel"), and let me have free reign over how I execute them, because they want to see my take on a certain style or pattern. In that case I send them a picture when it's ready, and I'd be more open to letting them decline the sale and ask me to make them something else. That hasn't happened yet, but it's possible.

Lastly, is there a taboo against selling the returned knife as long as I am upfront about its history?

I don't think so. Be upfront like you said, knock a few bucks off the price and describe it as field-tested. :)
 
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I have had this situation before. I would just take the knife back and credit the amount paid toward the knife/knives they re-ordered. If the knife cleans up OK, just re-buff the handle, sharpen it, and re-sell this one.

I think this may be the right approach. You are not refunding his money but giving him a credit to ensure he gets the blade he wants. As a customer, I would be happy with that service, especially in the custom market. As a maker, you are not going to lose money and hopefully gain a repeat customer.
 
It's very simple, if the customer isn't happy the issue gets taken care of.

I'd return the money in hopes of really earning the next sale.

It's one knife... you want to sell him 20. It's easy, just make each one the best knife he has ever used. :D

Nice work, great looking knife.
 
I agree with Stacy and Benjamin here. Customer relations is very important. I want to add that padauk is holding up very well in the kitchen knives I have made. I also have ebony and zebrano holding up well. Edit: black walnut holds up well in the kitchen too. Honduras mahogany is one of my favorites, but is a bit on the soft side. Brazilian tiger wood is another good kitchen choice. I give a small vial of Danish oil and a small vial of beeswax to the owner to maintain the handle.
 
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Kitchen knives are so function driven that there is not a lot of room to 'experiment'. You didn't mention how thick your blade is, but IMO, even 1/8 is too thick in the kitchen except on boning knives. The best ones I've made are from 1/16" thick stock. They are so prone to mishap during the finish grinding (at my skill level at least - low skill) that I have made only a dozen or so. Most of those are in my kitchen or my mom or sisters. The good thing is that I have a really good idea of what works, and what I make for the kitchen. AND, these are my knives I actually get to use. The bad thing is that they are so hard for me to nail that I basically don't offer them.

As to the situation, this could be an excellent way for you to learn to nail the functionality. You can work with this guy and find out exactly what makes a kitchen knife perform well. BUT!!!!!! A touchy feeley, nitpickey, return the knife again and again customer is not profitable! Be careful not to loose your shirt.

After making my own kitchen knives, I only use g10 or micarta and SS for kitchen knives. You need to explain up front that this is not intended for the dishwasher, and your warranty does not include the guy's wife washing it in a non -custom knife- way and certainly not the dishwasher. The wear and tear on kitchen knives is amazing. Even SS's and g10's don't like the diswasher.
 
Whatever you do with this customer/ situation, I would highly recommend having a critique of your work and feedback from someone who specializes in high end kitchen cutlery. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to understand by just viewing pics online. Also many knife makers make "kitchen" knives but don't make something that someone would want to work with shift after shift, week after week in the kitchen. Someone who really makes top of the line knives can teach you much faster about things like profile, grind, thickness behind edge, proper distal taper, convexity, food release, wedging ect... than you will learn by trial and error. Also get your hands on top quality kitchen knives and see how they cut to get a feel for what you knives will be compared to. Good luck!
 
Thank you for your replies everyone, much appreciated.

I have had this situation before. I would just take the knife back and credit the amount paid toward the knife/knives they re-ordered. If the knife cleans up OK, just re-buff the handle, sharpen it, and re-sell this one.

I would suggest you take a lot of looks at the top quality chefs knives in The Exchange and other places and see what chefs call a Chefs blade. Your knife is pretty, but it is a very basic utility slicer. It would get little use in a commercial kitchen. The handle is pretty, but will soon be ruined in a commercial kitchen, too. Use a handle material that takes wear , abuse, and lots of washing. Micarta, rosewood, ebony, etc. all will hold up to full time use. I sell five Micarta handled knives to real chefs for every one fancy handled blade.

There is nothing wrong with a 1084 knife and a pretty handle, but for what I see in your photo, it is worth about what you got. Using better steel, and tougher handles may increase the price.

I am going to pick up the knife from him on Tuesday, since I will be in his area. I do know that this individual literally babies his knives, so that is why I let him go with the redwood.

I used Redwood stabilized by K&G, I was under the impression that this stuff was essentially waterproof, or could be thought of as a solid block of plastic, but I may have some confusion?

I do have experience with the toughness of rosewood and ebony, through my musical instrument pursuits. I have some rather nice macassar ebony stock here that I can use for my next one.


I'm just wondering, what makes the price on this knife so low? It is an 8" knife with stabilized wood handle, even though it is only 1084. It just doesn't jive with what I've been getting on my smaller knives. Does length become a profit sink? I'm wondering because I enjoyed making this, but it will be hard for me to take a hit on that much extra labor and material considering I'm just starting out. I may want to stick to nothing but 4-5" hunters if that is the case (not being sarcastic).

I post a couple examples to illustrate my worries:

I just had two local makers appraise this one (5.25") at either $230-$240 or $250 if sheath is included, or $190-200 without sheath. I tried to sell it for $180, but the customer insisted on paying $200. It used roughly half the blade steel, took about the same amount of time, same exact cost in stabilized wood, but I made 30% more on it.
UM7Oh9K.jpg



This one sold for $155, it is a 4" hunter/skinner, so used roughly 30% less steel and probably 10-20% less time, for 10-15% more on sale price. It "appraised" at $150-160 without sheath, or $190-200 with sheath. I personally would have probably been more in the $140 range without, or $170 range with, but it sells for what it sells for, I guess.
7d9vLW1.jpg







I agree with Stacy and Benjamin here. Customer relations is very important. I want to add that padauk is holding up very well in the kitchen knives I have made. I also have ebony and zebrano holding up well. Edit: black walnut holds up well in the kitchen too. Honduras mahogany is one of my favorites, but is a bit on the soft side. Brazilian tiger wood is another good kitchen choice. I give a small vial of Danish oil and a small vial of beeswax to the owner to maintain the handle.

Well, I have at least 3 out of those you mentioned, so that's nice :)


Kitchen knives are so function driven that there is not a lot of room to 'experiment'. You didn't mention how thick your blade is, but IMO, even 1/8 is too thick in the kitchen except on boning knives. The best ones I've made are from 1/16" thick stock. They are so prone to mishap during the finish grinding (at my skill level at least - low skill) that I have made only a dozen or so. Most of those are in my kitchen or my mom or sisters. The good thing is that I have a really good idea of what works, and what I make for the kitchen. AND, these are my knives I actually get to use. The bad thing is that they are so hard for me to nail that I basically don't offer them.

As to the situation, this could be an excellent way for you to learn to nail the functionality. You can work with this guy and find out exactly what makes a kitchen knife perform well. BUT!!!!!! A touchy feeley, nitpickey, return the knife again and again customer is not profitable! Be careful not to loose your shirt.

After making my own kitchen knives, I only use g10 or micarta and SS for kitchen knives. You need to explain up front that this is not intended for the dishwasher, and your warranty does not include the guy's wife washing it in a non -custom knife- way and certainly not the dishwasher. The wear and tear on kitchen knives is amazing. Even SS's and g10's don't like the diswasher.

I think kitchen knives may be even worse for me, as I've historically preferred the thinner amongst the production knives. I wish I had been more into customs/handmade when I was doing all of my knife purchasing.

I have a really good eye for thicknesses of things. At my old-old work, I used to be able to slide sheets of stainless off the rack by eye, within about .005". So basically you could ask me for a .015", a .035", and a .050", and I could go pull them like second nature. My old boss and I used to play a game to impress visitors (trust me, not my idea), where he would set a pair of calipers to a certain random thickness, and I would have to guess what it was with the calipers turned backwards towards me.

edit: sorry, I forgot to discuss blade thickness again. It is 1/8". Please keep in mind, this knife was originally designed as a camp knife. The edge is ground to .030" thickness, with a beefy convex secondary. This knife was originally intended to be able to de-limb firewood just as well as it chops potatoes or quarters a whole chicken.

The customer requests:

Knife 1: VERY tough slicing/carving knife, something that he could swing into a rib roast like a baseball bat, and not worry about damaging (not that he would actually do that).

Knife 2: Thin, slightly flexible, slim profile chef's knife, ~8". This one I had planned in 1/16" already.


The only reason I let him take this knife is that it is almost exactly what he asked for in Knife 1, except that it is too short. He really liked it and wanted it, so I let him take it.

Whatever you do with this customer/ situation, I would highly recommend having a critique of your work and feedback from someone who specializes in high end kitchen cutlery. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to understand by just viewing pics online. Also many knife makers make "kitchen" knives but don't make something that someone would want to work with shift after shift, week after week in the kitchen. Someone who really makes top of the line knives can teach you much faster about things like profile, grind, thickness behind edge, proper distal taper, convexity, food release, wedging ect... than you will learn by trial and error. Also get your hands on top quality kitchen knives and see how they cut to get a feel for what you knives will be compared to. Good luck!

One good thing is that I've been around kitchen knives almost my whole life. My grandparents had a beautiful collection of vintage USA made kitchen knives, which was passed down to my parents. My old boss buys classic style kitchen knives from this small place back east, I forget what they're called, but they've been at it for a long time. He has quite an impressive collection as well, some VERY high end. I personally own something like $1500 in production kitchen knives.

edit2: finally found that place my old boss got a lot of his knives from: http://www.warthercutlery.com/ Their stuff is really nice, and the prices are quite good as well.

I met my fiance in the service industry 8 years ago (she was putting herself through nursing school), and made a good deal of friends in "restaurant row". I've talked knives many, many times with veteran cooks and chefs.

I would actually say cooking is my number one hobby, in front of knives and musical instruments. I have a really firm grasp on what makes a good kitchen knife :)
 
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Oh that sucks. But as a Chef he should have know that is not what he was looking for. It is odd he jump on it so fast.

Best to credit him towards another knife and resell that one, Just divulge it was test driven and returned for a larger knife.
 
Not sure what you mean by "Cooling off". That sounds like the customer was upset. I'm new to this too and yes it is just a hobby so I offer a solid warranty and return policy as long as the knife is in the same condition. In this case I'm thinking the customer just did not get what he expected. I posted up my first so called chef design and happy that I scrapped the knife. It wasn't a real kitchen knife.

On my current kitchen knife projects, I like to start with .100 or less bar stock, cut out the design, drill and then send it to heat treat with out a pre grind.
 
Not sure what you mean by "Cooling off". That sounds like the customer was upset. I'm new to this too and yes it is just a hobby so I offer a solid warranty and return policy as long as the knife is in the same condition. In this case I'm thinking the customer just did not get what he expected. I posted up my first so called chef design and happy that I scrapped the knife. It wasn't a real kitchen knife.

On my current kitchen knife projects, I like to start with .100 or less bar stock, cut out the design, drill and then send it to heat treat with out a pre grind.

I did mention a few posts back, in some states "cooling off period" means "no questions asked return period".

It refers to people being heated with excitement and making impulse purchases that weren't really right for them.


This knife is thick for a kitchen knife, but that wasn't what it was designed as. Its original intention was as a camp knife.

That said, if I see a heavy knife in a kitchen, it's usually a carving knife, so I'm not too far off the mark either way. He wanted something that could be swung into bone without worrying about damage, and this knife can definitely deliver that. It's just too short for him.

I mentioned above, I already had a chef's out of 1/16" stock planned for this same customer, and I'm an avid cook as well as fan of kitchen knives, so I know what it takes for sure.
 
I'm just wondering, what makes the price on this knife so low?

I just had two local makers appraise this one (5.25") at either $230-$240 or $250 if sheath is included, or $190-200 without sheath. I tried to sell it for $180, but the customer insisted on paying $200. It used roughly half the blade steel, took about the same amount of time, same exact cost in stabilized wood, but I made 30% more on it.


This one sold for $155, it is a 4" hunter/skinner, so used roughly 30% less steel and probably 10-20% less time, for 10-15% more on sale price. It "appraised" at $150-160 without sheath, or $190-200 with sheath. I personally would have probably been more in the $140 range without, or $170 range with, but it sells for what it sells for, I guess.



This is off topic from your op, but relevant to this post you made.

First off, you seem very determined and driven and the work I've seen you post looks really nice.

BUT--- you are brand spanking new as a custom maker. Knife making is one of the few crafts left in this world where "paying your dues" is still part of the big equation. With the immediate gratification society we live in, it's unfathomable for many guys to wrap their head around that, and they refuse to accept it. Many of them manage to make a splash, sell some knives on the forums, and then fade off into obscurity.

The only way to get your name out there, and actually have some weight behind it, is to get your work into peoples' hands.

That ultimately means selling your work for less than you think it's worth and being open and humble to feedback.

Figuring percentages and such sounds great on paper, but it won't really help much when trying to actually break into the custom knife world to make a name for yourself. Who are the local makers that "appraised" the knives for you?

I'm not trying to be negative to knock you down here, just touching on it since you brought up the question on pricing. :)
 
Nick, I had a long post written but I started to feel guilty for going so far off topic, and pared it down to this a couple hours after posting.

Just for the record, I wasn't hurt by bladsmth's opinion, only confused. He can't be all that wrong, because that's the price I let the knife leave my hand for, right? :D

I had a possible misconception that price somewhat related to blade length, that was the main motivation behind my reply. I really appreciate any and all feedback I receive here.

The more I read about pricing, the more I realize that even the seasoned pros don't really know sometimes (not a reference to bladsmth's agreement with my original sale price, just a general statement).



I completely understand the paying dues aspect, and I agree with it as well. Sometimes people enjoy supporting the new guy, as is evidenced by a very fast first sale this morning. I'll have to make sure to nurture those early connections as well as every one I make in the future. I'm really enjoying this. I'm a lifelong knife lover, since my first Camillus boy scout knife at 8. I never have tried knifemaking before, but this is something I know I'll be involved with (to some degree) for the long haul. I feel similarly to this as I do towards another passion of mine, musical instruments. I've done many different things and tried many hobbies, but only a few have truly grabbed my interest.

I worked in aerospace for many years, and now do telecom and low voltage subcontracting as my "day job". I've been working so much on my knife making you could almost call it full time. I haven't had an artistic outlet such as this in many years, and I've been going a little nuts with it.


edit: The estimates, I forgot. One of the makers is A. Strickland here in Hesperia, CA. Another is here in So-Cal as well, but I probably would want to ask permission before dragging him in on anything. Just FYI the second maker is more experienced and well known, and was the lower of the two estimates on both knives, as well as closer to my personal estimates (which were lower than that).

edit2: I felt guilty for going so off topic so I edited out quite a bit of my post.
 
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since you are relatively new to all of this, I would accept the return. Kill your customers with kindness and word will get around that you are MORE than fair to deal with. People like nice people as much as they like nice knives.
 
Hello,
Those are some very nice looking culinary knives.

I am a S. Cal maker that has been making mostly culinary knives 98. As a posted stated culinary knives are purpose driven and you want to get the basics layed out for Euro/American Chefs and japanese style knives.

I think taking back that knife for a order of two more is a Good thing. I will usually do that for any of my customers.

You are more than welcome to call and set up a time to stop by my shop in Santa Monica and talk knives and customers for awhile if you think I could help you? You can probably teach me something as well?
Tues-Fri 10a-5:30p
Sat 10a-4P
 
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Hello,
Those are some very nice looking culinary knives.

I am a S. Cal maker that has been making mostly culinary knives 98. As a posted stated culinary knives are purpose driven and you want to get the basics layed out for Euro/American Chefs and japanese style knives.

I think taking back that knife for a order of two more is a Good thing. I will usually do that for any of my customers.

You are more than welcome to call and set up a time to stop by my shop in Santa Monica and talk knives and customers for awhile if you think I could help you? You can probably teach me something as well?
Tues-Fri 10a-5:30p
Sat 10a-4P

Haha, probably nothing worthwhile, unless you enjoy random trivia, which I seem to excel at. :D

I got the knife back already, he was happy and I'll make sure the next one he gets is more tailored to his needs.

I think the bottom line is that I shouldn't have let him walk with a knife that wasn't the one he asked for. I think he just fell in love with the curly redwood, to be honest.

I'm supposed to meet another maker for lunch down in that area evenetually, I may end up doing a mini so-cal knifemaker day tour here pretty soon. :)
 
Haha, probably nothing worthwhile, unless you enjoy random trivia, which I seem to excel at. :D

I got the knife back already, he was happy and I'll make sure the next one he gets is more tailored to his needs.

I think the bottom line is that I shouldn't have let him walk with a knife that wasn't the one he asked for. I think he just fell in love with the curly redwood, to be honest.

I'm supposed to meet another maker for lunch down in that area evenetually, I may end up doing a mini so-cal knifemaker day tour here pretty soon. :)

No one is better at random trivia that I am!!! LOL.
 
You guys know better than I do, but I disagree with some... That's not why I'm writing this though, the OP knows my opinion. :)

I just wanted to mention that, from what I've seen, his efforts to make contact with clientele have been very good.

You seem like a very level headed and professional person, your knives are very aesthically pleasing. I'd like to see you progress.

Just don't burn yourself out quickly by doing too much! ;)
 
Some Great advice here so far, from some great people. IMO Customers aren't ALWAYS right but they usually are, especially if you want good word of mouth. I have had a similar experience where the customer actually designed the knife then didn't like it in hand. I took it back refunded the money and sold it to someone else for the original price.

Your work looks like high quality and you put a lot of effort into them. Make your customer happy!
 
The prices are where they are because of the value of your brand name rather than the $ amount of material used and time spent. You've got to build your brand.
 
When I am asked what my knives are worth by friends and family, I reply with a two part statement: "If I was an established maker with a good name it would be $XXX.XX. Since I am new, I would sell it for $XX.XX to get my name out. In a few years, and several hundred/thousand knives later, I will be able to sell them for what they are worth.

In terms of steel selection, I agree that 1084 makes a great knife, but it can be misperceived as a "beginner" steel. I use mainly O1, W2 (ran out now- crap- so I'm working with 1095 to practice hamons) and more recently 52100 and 15n20. I don't think the 1084 knives are really much worse, if at all, but its rare to see a high end knife in 1084. All other steels can be much worse than 1084 is the heat treat is wrong though. Its a perception thing, and not a reality thing.
 
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