Copy knives. Where does the line get drawn

[jill jackson]

I can't believe a lot of these copies aren't designed directly from the knives they look exactly like. That is they obtain one tear it down and copy every aspect.

 

[RevDevil]

I vote with my money, Chinese knives get no play from me.

The Microtechs existed long before the ZT 0777, yet people say Microtech copied the ZT. There is inspiration, and then that step further, and it can be difficult to distinguish between influences and copies.

Microtech was established as a company in 1994 from what I've been able to find online. Kershaw has been around a bit longer than that. The issue you are touching on is a lot deeper than you make it out to seem, somewhat of a bad example if you fail to provide details and integrate them into the topic.

 

[Poez]

Why would not leave that issue to lawyers? I do not see why I would have to be involved at all!
It is like with jeans: if you buy from a reputable dealer there is very little chance that you get conterfeight pair of Lee - even with counterfeight Lee jeans outnumbering the outhentic ones by a factor of may be 5. And I guess that is the only way there is!
As for the designs: should I really be bothered about one manufacturer of jeans stealing some design elements from another manufacturer? Really? I would rather leave it to them to sort these issues out! They have got options available for them as I understand, and what their choice would be should probably not concern me when I go pick a pair of jeans for myself at a store. I do not go checking it and comparing to the next pair and making assumptions about who copied whom: copying is what the fashion is about! Is there a knife fashion: sure there is! Do I feel qualified to make a distinction between fashion and copying: no, I don't.

 

[DShiflet]

To me it goes too far when it is an exact copy in terms of appearance, OR if you claim it to be something it's not. If you make a knife with the same blade shape as say, a Spydie Native, okay, whatever. If your design also features a FRN handle with the same textures, same dimensions, and an opening hole then that's going too far. Same thing, even if your knife doesn't match the Native exactly, but you sell it as a Native, or put Spyderco's logo on it and market it as a Spydie when it isn't, that's going too far.

 

[festerfromnzed]

Since knives and edged weapons both have been around for thousands of years there really isn't all that much that hasn't been done already, that's talking about basic design, blade shapes etc.

So going from that fact and one people do seem to forget and or not even take into consideration for various reasons and agendas......

I will say this:

As long as the knives aren't exact copies of other knives all is good because most of everything that is currently out there has been influenced by another design of the past.

That's looking at things logically based on the history of edges tools and weapons.

Agree on all points...I own these two that probably push the boundaries of copy status...lovely knives . Ralph Bone and Blackjack... FES

 

[recon1s14]

For me, the blatant copy of another knife or knifemakers design should not be condoned, but I understand the fact that the availability of clones, provided they do not claim to be the originals even if just assumed, can provide a good reason to try out a design before handing over a bigger pile of cash for something you may not like, I think the "copycats" in this regard can be quite handy.

But as for the actual subject of this thread, that the OP is not actually mentioning but sliding under the radar in a very tasteful approach, in my opinion, I think that certain Chinese "laboratories" that are coming out with original designs should not be barraged by accusations of their previous products but perhaps encouraged in their new original designs and perhaps they would reconsider copying other designs to make room for the demand of their newest and most popular products.

This describes the evolution of the Sanrenmu and sister companies, which are taken in high regard now that their original designs have replaced any copies the might have(are) made.

 

[Goosey]

I've been on a gun forum where they deleted my post mentioning Sanrenmu 710s (the particular moderator was a CRK nut ) and threatened banning after posting a picture of one.

I don't know where the line is drawn. Some people hate certain copies with a passion and give other copies a pass. Some copies are merely questionable, other copies are outright fakes.

 

[Karda]

A note about counterfeit goods........

...Let's think about high-fashion companies, which have been up in arms about counterfeits for years. It may be difficult to sympathize with them; you might think that outside their immediate circle, no one should really care about the "woes" of high-end designers who cater to the wealthy. When tempted to buy a fake Prada bag, you might say to yourself, "Well, designer products are too expensive, and it's silly to pay for the real thing." You might say, "I wouldn't consider buying the real product anyway, so the designer isn't really losing any money." Or maybe you would say, "Those fashion companies make so much money that a few people buying fake products won't really make a difference."

Whatever rationalizations we come up with-- and we are all very good at rationalizing our actions so that they are in line with our selfish motives-- it's difficult to find many people who feel that the alarm on the part of high-fashion companies is of grave personal concern.

But our results show there's another, more insidious story here. High-fashion companies aren't the only ones paying the price for counterfeits. Thanks to self-signaling and the what-the-hell effect, a single act of dishonesty can change a person's behavior from that point onward. What's more, if it's an act of dishonesty that comes with a built-in reminder (think about fake sunglasses with a big "Gucci" stamped on the side), the downstream influence could be long-lived and substantial. Ultimately, this means we all pay the price for counterfeits in terms of moral currency; "faking it" changes our behavior, our self-image, and the way we view others around us.

~~~~//~~~~

The bottom line is that we should not view a single act of dishonesty as just one petty act. We tend to forgive people for their first offense with the idea that it is just the first time and everyone makes mistakes. And although this may be true, we should also realize that the first act of dishonesty might be particularly important in shaping a way a person looks at himself and his actions from that point on-- and because of that, the first dishonest act is the most important one to prevent. That is why it is important to cut down on the number of seemingly innocuous singular acts of dishonesty....

 

[PURPLEDC]

A note about counterfeit goods........

understood, but my real question isnt so much of if counterfeiting is ethically wrong. I think any person with a moral compass should know this. My question is regarding just what defines a counterfeit. Is it the overall shape of the knife? Does it HAVE to have unauthorized logos? or does it just have to have the same outline and overall construction. Or do we as a collective of this forum only feel that its a counterfeit if produced in china? That wouldnt make sense to me but it seems to be some peoples defining attribute to call something a fake. The reason I ask what is a counterfeit is because I think the definition needs clearing up for what is an isnt allowed to be discussed on the forum. There are many companies out there that make 1 for 1 replicas of Randall and loveless designs. Many sold by our own paying dealers. Are they counterfeits? Or are they replicas? And if they are replicas, why would it appear that chinese made knives without logos but just like the randall copies are very close to the originals are called counterfeits? I just cant help but feel that its not a cut and dry matter of which I kinda wish it was. Because I cant think it fair that someone will rise up crying "counterfeit" whenever a chinese knife is represented. Yet there are clearly copy knives produced in the states, germany and other european countries that dont share the same stigma.

 

[Jamboi]

understood, but my real question isnt so much of if counterfeiting is ethically wrong. I think any person with a moral compass should know this. My question is regarding just what defines a counterfeit. Is it the overall shape of the knife? Does it HAVE to have unauthorized logos? or does it just have to have the same outline and overall construction. Or do we as a collective of this forum only feel that its a counterfeit if produced in china? That wouldnt make sense to me but it seems to be some peoples defining attribute to call something a fake. The reason I ask what is a counterfeit is because I think the definition needs clearing up for what is an isnt allowed to be discussed on the forum. There are many companies out there that make 1 for 1 replicas of Randall and loveless designs. Many sold by our own paying dealers. Are they counterfeits? Or are they replicas? And if they are replicas, why would it appear that chinese made knives without logos but just like the randall copies are very close to the originals are called counterfeits? I just cant help but feel that its not a cut and dry matter of which I kinda wish it was. Because I cant think it fair that someone will rise up crying "counterfeit" whenever a chinese knife is represented. Yet there are clearly copy knives produced in the states, germany and other european countries that dont share the same stigma.

I see what you are asking here, but I can not speak for the forum itself. IMO a counterfeit or knock off is anything claiming to be the original. Meaning it has to look exactly the same and have the same markings on it. A perfect example is the Bear Grylls knife by Bayley. I happend to be looking for one when they started popping up on ebay. A real knife was $600 and there are fakes for $40. I would have no problem with the fakes if they did not have "Bear Grylls" stamped on the sheath and knife. I do think that the word China plays into it a lot. So many Americans are stuck in the "Made in America" mode that they get angry if you even mention another country (that is not directly considered an ally). I hear "Don't buy anything made in China." all the time. Japan, Mexico, Canada, Taiwan, south Korea, etc, etc all get a pass.

 

[bld522]

Here are the facts:

Counterfeits exist . . . they always have and they always will.
People buy them . . . they always have and they always will.
Nothing we say or do here will stop them . . . it never has and it never will.

Carry on.

 

[dragonsprayer]

you copyright your design

or you get copied - all knives are copies of copies of copies modified little by little

line is copyright or design patent - if do get it then your design is a copy or close too one.

 

[dragonsprayer]

[/QUOTE]

Copies/clones/counterfeits/knockoffs/etc are an insult to the designers and manufacturers (be they a company or a custom maker), and do only harm to the industry, hobby, and livelihood of the honest craftsmen who produce these knives. Is there a line? Yes. If you take/borrow/steal an idea from another without permission (or licensing), you've crossed the line. If you don't know where that line is, then you need reeducation in morals and ethics.[/QUOTE]

this is wrong copy is complimate.
we copied our space and planes from nazies, the guns on todays tanks are designed in germany still - licienced too japan.
licience your design if it so orginal

but i agree we need import duties on chineese knock offs on company by company even item by item list

sorry i spell like chit and i was up all night -- nice site guys!

 

[Dorito Monk]

A note about counterfeit goods........

I'm genuinely not sure what to make of that quote. Maybe that excerpt is a bit out of context (since I'm guessing he elaborates a bit more), but there's a few major problems with that quote in the context of this topic. I'm not trying to pick at you, Karda, but I'm trying to look at the things Mr. Ariely mentions in perspective.

When you break down that quote, he seems to be talking about the importance of cutting down on the number of 'seemingly innocuous singular acts of dishonesty' that people perpetrate. That's well and good, but it strikes me that that gentleman was trying very hard, through the liberal use of buzz-words, pseudo-science, and dramatic language, to imply causality between a very minor issue (ie: people buying fake Gucci products) and a much more significant issue (ie: vague, un-named issues regarding the moral decay of modern man / a pivotal point in a person's mental development). It seems like that entire excerpt serves to say nothing more than, "If you buy fake sunglasses and justify it to yourself, it will have an influence on you, and that influence will be long-lived and substantial".

Yeah, I'd buy that, but only if he had replaced the phrase "long-lived and substantial" with "completely negligible, at the very most". Seriously, with all of the real psychological issues that people actually have to cope with in life (Alchohol / drug addiction, abusive relationships, depression, eating disorders, traumatic incidents, the stress of unemployment...you name it), do you honestly believe that anyone should put their actual problems on the back burner and worry about "the price we pay for counterfeits in terms of moral currency"? Not that there's anything wrong with trying to remove all of the "seemingly innocuous acts of dishonesty" from your life, but acting like buying knockoffs is an issue that has a real impact on people (especially in the context of psychology and morality, like this Ariely fellow is saying) is almost laughable when you think about the much, much more influential issues normal people deal with.

I hope one day I have no greater concern in my life than the "downstream influences" of buying, I don't know, a knockoff Les Paul guitar when I was in college. If anyone here should wake up tomorrow with no bigger psychological problems than the "downstream influences" of buying knockoff Gucci products, knockoff knives, knockoff sunglasses, then be sure to write out a nice big thank-you note to God, because you are unbelievably lucky. :thumbup:

 

[helobite]

I have read a number of posts on this site about Cold Steel’s copying Bob Lovelace’s Black Bear Classic, however no one complains about all the custom knife maker copies of the Black Bear Classic. I really wanted a Black Bear, but I can’t afford the $21,000 auction prices http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/918167-2012-Premier-Knife-Auction of an original Loveless knife. Why should I be limited to only buying original Bob Lovelace knives? If copies were not allowed that $21,000 dollar knife would be $210,000.

I never hear anyone complaining about Barlow’s, Stockman’s, Sunfish’s, Randall’s, being copied. Why is that? Is it because the posters just assume that designs made before their date of self awareness are supposed to be in the public domain? Just who decides on what date constitutes the "before me" date by which all designs created “before me” are now in the public domain?

I don’t believe in patents as they are Government monopolies that cost society more than the supposed value they bring back to society. The only thing worth protecting is Trademark. If you make a knife under your name, your company name, that product represents you, and Trademark should be protected.

For the rest, I believe in free market competition based on price, features, and Trademark. If the consumer is willing to pay more for the brand name (Trademark), even though it has the same features as other knives, than that is their choice, same as if they are willing to pay less for the same product with the same features under a different name.

 

[Yo Mama]

I will say this Spyderco gets the most respect from me at least when they design a knife, They don't call a frame lock a frame lock they call it a R.I.L Reeve Integral lock, Because Reeve designed it , They call a liner lock a Michael walker liner lock, for the same reason. Certain knife features have been patented and that's fine you designed it its yours, Others have chose to not patent their designs for the whole industry to use, again thats fine, as well but giving credit to the original designer is a big plus for Spyderco in my book.

This! Give credit, why hide it. The designers worked hard to create new inovations.

OP, I think it depends how, what, when, who, ect...... China has nothing to do with it. China can put out some decent stuff. It really comes down the the maker and their intentions.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

China has nothing to do with it.

Remember when we came out of WW II and Japan was decimated. They rushed to rebuild but the best they could do quickly was churn out cheap stuff, so "Made in Japan" came to mean shoddy workmanship. That only lasted until they earned the money to modernize and upgrade. Now they set the standards for others to reach for.

Industrialization progresses in steps.

 

[The_Iron_Joe]

I'd have to say there is a fundamental difference between 'counterfeit' knives and 'clones'. A counterfeit shouldn't be bought, whereas a clone shouldn't have stigma attached to it.

What I mean is, if two companies each made a separate knife based around a similar design [think of the Southard Flipper from Spyderco and the 300 from Benchmade, albeit a much more similar design], and neither knife was marketed or made out to be the other, then I'd buy whichever knife I liked more, regardless of who made it first. If one company can make a product that I'd like to own more than another that looks similar, why would I settle for the other guy?

This is of course assuming no legal patents were abused.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

A counterfeit is a knife deliberately based on another company's model and marked and marketed as if it was made by the original company.

A clone is a knife deliberately based on another company's model but sterile or marked with its own name. Clone can be a contentious definition because each of us has to decide if the design is too close to another company's original. Remember the Sogzilla?

There is also a problem defining similarity when more than one company uses a design cues that become popular. Is a G10 front scale on a titanium framelock a clone? Probably not, unless the handle is shaped like the iconic Strider folders.

 

[The_Iron_Joe]

So basically, you're saying it's a case-by-case basis. Can't disagree with that.