Copy knives. Where does the line get drawn

WillardCorspe said:
I'd have to say there is a fundamental difference between 'counterfeit' knives and 'clones'.
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This.

I've made this point over and over in the years I've been here. It always causes hurt feelings among folks unwilling /unable to understand the difference.

Furthermore, I've stated that copying is a good thing. Regardless if it's knives, computers, or paperclips. Copying is the fuel for innovation. Sorry folks, but nobody is entitled to sit on their laurels in perpetuity. Not even when one enjoys the benefit of patent, which have very definite lifespans for the very reason of not stifling the market for a product.
 
Clone vs counterfeit is pretty obvious. The gray area, as I see it, is with companies who market counterfeits for areas that don't prosecute them and the exact same knife re-lableled for places that do. No matter how good or bad a clone is I would never buy if it puts money in the hands of a company that also counterfeits.
 
shecky said:
This.

I've made this point over and over in the years I've been here. It always causes hurt feelings among folks unwilling /unable to understand the difference.

Furthermore, I've stated that copying is a good thing. Regardless if it's knives, computers, or paperclips. Copying is the fuel for innovation. Sorry folks, but nobody is entitled to sit on their laurels in perpetuity. Not even when one enjoys the benefit of patent, which have very definite lifespans for the very reason of not stifling the market for a product.
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I've made a version of this argument repeatedly as well. The idea that anyone who wants a Hinderer would buy an Inron MY803 instead is ludicrous. The cheap, similarly styled knife isn't costing Hinderer a sale. Now the more expensive counterfeit knife that is actually labeled and passed off as a Hinderer is a different story, I can see the evil in that.

The same goes for the other clones. Only knife dorks pine for Sebenzas, and what knife dork would intentionally buy a cheap clone and be happy with it (e.g. a <$10 SRM 710)? When they make extremely similar knock-offs that are labeled to pass off as the real thing, then I understand why folks get all spun up. I have a hard time getting as agitated about the looser clones that aren't labeled as the original thing.
 
Well i thought this thread would die, but, i take another approach.

you buy a copy because you like it and you can not afford the other or you like too test it then buy the more expensive or you did not see the orginal.

you buy the orginal since you like the name and your brand oriented and/or you wantquality, reliablity and a dependable item.

or you buy both keep the orginal in safe and use the copy! everyone wins!

ok sorry offend anyone once again but this kind of silly copy is not really a copy with a knife it is cheap knock off, i got buick regal designed 5 years ago. Hyndi copies it and says it is better? Testing shows it is woarse in ride, 0-60 and gas milage. It has a 2 liter turbo, GM has been building a 2 liter direct injection 300 hp engine since mid 90's but idiots still pay lot more bad copy in a bemmer. I have LNF cobalt SS the engine was designed for sky and solstice and in the colbalt since 08 factory stage 1 kit gives it 290 to 310 hp depending on which of 3.

wow did i go off on tangent....... sorry
 
Esav Benyamin said:
A counterfeit is a knife deliberately based on another company's model and marked and marketed as if it was made by the original company.

A clone is a knife deliberately based on another company's model but sterile or marked with its own name. Clone can be a contentious definition because each of us has to decide if the design is too close to another company's original. Remember the Sogzilla?

There is also a problem defining similarity when more than one company uses a design cues that become popular. Is a G10 front scale on a titanium framelock a clone? Probably not, unless the handle is shaped like the iconic Strider folders.
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I'm going to agree with this.

We all know of famous clones of premium knives. As long as the manufacturer slaps their own badging on it, and doesn't attempt to present it as anything other than what it is then I don't see an issue. Heck, my Navy K631 carried me for quite a while until I was able to buy my first Spyderco. Using the original branding though, that's wrong.
 
So for example. there are now copies of the hinderer XM and zt0777 that are now being sold that have titanium handles, supposedly decent blade steel and from 5 feet away they look identical. The ZT clone however is available with G10 handles or carbon fiber and the blade is either stonewashed or a dark grey. They dont have logos, serial numbers nor is the blade on the 0777 clone made to look like a composite blade. The hinders now say Titanium on the handle instead of hinderer. Are these counterfeit or simply tasteless clones? I have the 0777 clone. And while its not a ZT it far exceeded my expectations and ive been edcing the thing without any issue. And normally I buy the real deal. But I couldnt find a 0777 to buy period. One did pop up but im not paying $777,lol.
 
Copying, cloning, counterfeiting is not a factor of innovation. It dulls the little creativity left in our all commercial world. Bettering an existing design is an all different matter. Our whole technology is historically built upon this process. Even if some original creators were robbed along the line, it was because they missed somehow the "bettering factor" somewhere. It all boils down to a matter of respect : bettering an existing design with some additional features while paying tribute and announcing the fact is one thing. I don't see why anybody couldn't step up and compete. Ripping off, copying and pretending to be the real, sideways or not, is disgusting. For those who do it, first, and for those who buy in, even more. I only need to think of those fake Gucci glasses when I need to take a puke. Honestly, people, if you wouldn't buy this shit, they wouldn't produce it.
 
PURPLEDC said:
So for example. there are now copies of the hinderer XM and zt0777 that are now being sold that have titanium handles, supposedly decent blade steel and from 5 feet away they look identical. The ZT clone however is available with G10 handles or carbon fiber and the blade is either stonewashed or a dark grey. They dont have logos, serial numbers nor is the blade on the 0777 clone made to look like a composite blade. The hinders now say Titanium on the handle instead of hinderer. Are these counterfeit or simply tasteless clones? I have the 0777 clone. And while its not a ZT it far exceeded my expectations and ive been edcing the thing without any issue. And normally I buy the real deal. But I couldnt find a 0777 to buy period. One did pop up but im not paying $777,lol.
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I've honestly been wanting to know this too (the 0777 clone). Since, it has no markings or ZT logos I wondered if we could discuss it on the forums here, but wanting to avoid any repercussions I stayed silent.
 
Planterz said:
You're welcome to find another forum or start your own. Either way, opinions like yours won't be missed by people like me if you left and never returned.

Copies/clones/counterfeits/knockoffs/etc are an insult to the designers and manufacturers (be they a company or a custom maker), and do only harm to the industry, hobby, and livelihood of the honest craftsmen who produce these knives. Is there a line? Yes. If you take/borrow/steal an idea from another without permission (or licensing), you've crossed the line. If you don't know where that line is, then you need reeducation in morals and ethics.
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Why the hostility?
 
herisson said:
Copying, cloning, counterfeiting is not a factor of innovation. It dulls the little creativity left in our all commercial world. Bettering an existing design is an all different matter. Our whole technology is historically built upon this process. Even if some original creators were robbed along the line, it was because they missed somehow the "bettering factor" somewhere. It all boils down to a matter of respect : bettering an existing design with some additional features while paying tribute and announcing the fact is one thing. I don't see why anybody couldn't step up and compete. Ripping off, copying and pretending to be the real, sideways or not, is disgusting. For those who do it, first, and for those who buy in, even more. I only need to think of those fake Gucci glasses when I need to take a puke. Honestly, people, if you wouldn't buy this shit, they wouldn't produce it.
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Do you have the same reaction to tribute bands or AC Cobra replicas?

Neither actually improve on the franchise, except to make the experience available to people who would otherwise be unable to experience the originals.

As I said, using original branding is wrong but replicating an existing sound/shape is an accepted part of many industries. I don't know that the numerous Cobra replicas pay any royalties to AC or Carrol Shelby, nor do the various Lotus 7 replicas that are sold under their own brand name pay royalties to Colin Chapman and Lotus. It would be hard to improve on the Lotus anyway, given it is basically the perfect sports car and what improvements there are (Di Dion axle) were done in the factory.
 
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redfeenix said:
I've honestly been wanting to know this too (the 0777 clone). Since, it has no markings or ZT logos I wondered if we could discuss it on the forums here, but wanting to avoid any repercussions I stayed silent.
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I will only say that I dont regret my purchase one bit.





herisson said:
Copying, cloning, counterfeiting is not a factor of innovation. It dulls the little creativity left in our all commercial world. Bettering an existing design is an all different matter. Our whole technology is historically built upon this process. Even if some original creators were robbed along the line, it was because they missed somehow the "bettering factor" somewhere. It all boils down to a matter of respect : bettering an existing design with some additional features while paying tribute and announcing the fact is one thing. I don't see why anybody couldn't step up and compete. Ripping off, copying and pretending to be the real, sideways or not, is disgusting. For those who do it, first, and for those who buy in, even more. I only need to think of those fake Gucci glasses when I need to take a puke. Honestly, people, if you wouldn't buy this shit, they wouldn't produce it.
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well the funny thing about your feelings of some of these products being "fecal matter" is that some of them are made quite well and out of very nice materials. Some so good in fact that a certain maker who makes very high dollar production and custom knives stated that he had a very hard time telling a fake from one of his originals.
 
PURPLEDC said:
I will only say that I dont regret my purchase one bit.








well the funny thing about your feelings of some of these products being "fecal matter" is that some of them are made quite well and out of very nice materials. Some so good in fact that a certain maker who makes very high dollar production and custom knives stated that he had a very hard time telling a fake from one of his originals.
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Post some pics and a review on the review forums! I want to see more!
 
redfeenix said:
PURPLEDC-Ask the mods before you do so, I'd like to see one too!
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purpledc1 is my youtube channel. You can see it all there. Even if the mod gods granted permission I honestly dont feel it would be well received by many people on the forum. So out of respect to the collective I think its best if people want to see it they can seek it out there. Im currently the only english video of the knife so with my channel name and that fact it wont be hard to find.
 
Ah crap I already saw that video before posting here :D

Thanks nonetheless, you covered up almost everything on the knife.

I was hoping you would have the CF version, but its all good though :) :thumbup:
 
If they are straight copies then they deserve to be melted down into bats to beat the crap out of the people who made them. If they are close but have changes made to the names and are easily identified as not being the real thing, meh whatever. If they are copies of knives that are no longer produced and have no names or marks that look even remotely similar to the real thing once again, meh whatever can't hurt knife sales of a knife that is no longer produced.
 
Everyone step back. Look at history, dating back as far as it goes. Everything ever made was a copy of something someone else made. Until someone decided to make something even better. Then everyone else copied that. It happened then. It happens today. It will happen in the future. Deal with it.

If your original product was so dang good, it should stand for itself. If your knife is so dang awesome and you do such a better job of it, then it should sell itself. Some chinese company (or whoever) comes along and copies your design? Your better, name-brand knife is way better, right?

If it's not that much better that it sells itself, why are you selling it for so much more?

Why would I pay alot of money for a Fallkniven knife compared to a Condor? Condor makes a dang good knife - you could trust your life to a $30 Condor knife. But why does a Fallkniven cost $100-200 and people still buy them? Because they are better. Are they twice as good? No. Maybe 5-10% better. But they sell for ALOT more than a Condor knife. Why? Because they are that much better. (I love Fallkniven, have a number of their knives - probably my favorite knife is a Fallkniven S1 with micarta handles I put on it) - I also have a Condor Golok)

Like someone in this thread said before - every knife out there - very few of them not included - draw from someone else's design. (Khukri's by, say, Himalayan Imports are an example of the exception - but even then, it's rumored the design ideas came from Greek swords.) Deal with it. Until someone directly markets it as a counterfit.

Me? I prefer nicer knives. I have a bunch of Benchmade knives - including a 950 Rift. Yet I went out and bought one of those Gonzo knock-offs (after I had the Benchmade for a couple years) because I was curious. Dang nice little knife. Almost exact knockoff. (My only knock-off knife I own) Would I carry it? Yea. But the Benchmade is a much nicer knife. Is the Benchmade THAT much better of a knife? No. It's not worth the extra money. But I'd still buy the Benchmade instead of the Gonzo if I, personally, had the choice, because I want that little extra better quality. Some people can't afford a $100+ knife though. WHY ARE WE FORCING OUR BELOVED KNIFE INDUSTRY TO KEEP PRICES HIGHER ON QUALITY KNIVES?

(On the other hand, I am a HUGE proponent of keeping industry in the US of A - but that isn't going to happen. I'm also a realist)
 
I always think its funny when I see people moaning about Chinese knives that are similar to major brands. I agree that true FAKES are wrong because they are passed off to unwitting buyers as the real deal. But come on, how many people who are really considering buying a Sebenza and then look at a Sanrenmu 710 get it instead? The Sanrenmu looks very similar to the Sebenza, but that's where the similarities end. Nobody is going to seriously compare the two knives on an even playing field. So I can't see where SRM selling the 710 impacts the sales or prestige of the Sebenza in the least.

I have a SRM 710 and not a Sebenza, but that has Nothing to do with the SRM knife. I just have a self imposed $200 upper limit on any single knife. If I were willing to spend what a Sebenza costs, I'd have one. I just don't see where the sales of these two knives even intersect at all.

This analogy can be pretty much extended to almost all Chinese knives that are similar to name brands.
 
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