Cost gap-USA vs. Offshore

[severedthumbs]

I just don't understand what kind of warranty work a titanium framelock is supposed to need during the normal knife user's lifetime. Do you only have one knife and can't wait a few weeks for a warranty trip in the event you manage to snap another blade using your blade as a bar?

As noted by others, it's easy for even an inexperienced user to replace a clip or pivot or maybe a bearing race without more than an encouraging email and a packet of parts. I don't know why you think that US service centers backed up by good personal experiences from your fellow knife enthusiasts is some kind of lie or questionable statement.

And yet knife companies have employees doing just warranty service each day. Call CRK and ask them since it’s so incomprehensible for you. Lots of companies will not send out parts. They require you to send the knife in.

 

[Hackenslash]

Correct it’s my opinion but I’m also not claiming any to be superior to the other. Only offering my opinion and my observations of the last 20+ years that I’ve been active in the community. I don’t buy Benchmade or Kai products so I offered no input on them. But I’ve seen both good and questionable service from both over the years.
I’d still not buy a user that not American made just because if I do need that service it’s just easier to not ship a knife out of the country.

I sent my Reate to California, which last time I checked was still in the Country.

Thank you for confirming that that there are good and bad service outcomes regardless of where a knife might be made.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

This thread:

 

[NG VI]

And yet knife companies have employees doing just warranty service each day. Call CRK and ask them since it’s so incomprehensible for you. Lots of companies will not send out parts. They require you to send the knife in.

Sounds way less user friendly than simply asking what you need and sending it directly, these aren't lawnmower engines after all

 

[SpaceGhost88]

Incorrect. As seen in the quotes below, most of the higher end Chinese OEMs have US Warranty Centers. Parts like clips or pivots are easily replaced... even by the most inexperience of owners.



These aren’t facts. These are nothing more than your very unqualified opinions. A few people commenting here that they got a screw or a maker warranties their Chinese made product isn’t a big enough sample to make these broad statements.
I have sent knives to Strider and CRK for warranty work. Strider put a brand new blade and all new hardware when I broke the blade prying with it. It cost me $25 for shipping and that was it. Took about 2 weeks. Sent a Sebenza to CRK for a bushing issue and it was resolved quickly at no cost. I can’t imagine and Chinese company offering a better warranty and service than either of these two American companies.

Chinese knives needing less maintenance , that’s just simply nonsense. Please show some actual proof of this.

I’d also like to see what happens when someone needs warranty work on one of these designer Chinese knives that have been out of procuring for a while and there are no more parts like a specific clip for example. I doubt the designer is going to crank up the cnc to make a one off part for you.

What is needed to make my opinion “qualified”?

Be specific and empirical.

 

[SpaceGhost88]

This thread:

Kinda figured it would go like this… but what the heck…

 

[midnight flyer]

This thread:

Awww..... come on. It's going the way these threads always do since now the same old experts are starting to attack one another.

Did you expect anything else?

The political threads (hijacked thread in this case) are always the longest and most vigorous. Always the same guys, always the same outcome.

 

[Cobalt]

Read 90% of this thread and I have to say it peaked my interest enough to look at Reate knives. I have never held one or seen one in person. But I trust that if people on this forum say that they have a level of fit and finish as good or better than my favorites(Spy and ZT) I have no reason to believe that they would be lying.

So I looked on line and they had a few designs I would like and then I saw the price. The fact that they are successful at that price means that they must be making the consumer happy. No way would a company with crap quality knives survive for long at that price.

The purchase of a product is a personal decision. There is no right or wrong choice. Just your choice. For me, no, I won't, There are to many little nagging issues I would have to get over. First, I would have to trust that the steel used is in fact that steel. I know for fact, that on many occasions, steel tested that was purchased from China and sold to american manufacturing was not what it was claimed to be. This goes to ethics. If they run out of cpmS35Vn, go ahead and substitute their smelted version of it, they(the world) won't know the difference. I am not saying Reate is a company that lacks ethics. They may be the most ethical company in China. But for me and my opinion, the law of averages is on my side. Guangdong province, is known as the fakes manufacturing Capital of the world. Fake watches, handbags, and knives. That's where their factory is(I looked it up). Could this be the same factory that was making high quality, fake sebenzas. I sure don't know. In order for them to take my money, they have to prove to me that they have somehow found ethics in a place where it is so rare. They have not proven that to me. Maybe if the factory had been in another part of China, that would have helped. Maybe if they make public their purchase amounts of steel from Europe and USA, verified by the sellers, that would help. I looked on a few sites and they have tons of knives for sale. They certainly are not limited and hard to get like a sebenza. Which means that production numbers are high, which means that steel import to china must be huge if you believe that they are receiving steel in a country that has more steel mills than the whole world combined.

If any company in China wants to be taken seriously, China needs to crack down on their own government supported fakes industry. I may then give them my money. Till then, my money goes elsewhere. I am not here to argue with anyone. This is my view.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I'm forever an optimist (much to my habit of taking avoidable lumps), but I feel that Reate is on the up and up as far as I can tell. It would be nice to see where they get their steel from, and it would be extra cool/helpful if we had some of our more scholarly members knowledgeable of such things take a look at random sample to see if their steel is exactly what they say it is. I see sectors of China moving away from bait and switch/cheap buck business models, which make sense if you have a largely undertrained and unskilled labor force like they had a generation ago. However, the markets make niches where they can be made. It makes sense that with the right tooling and training that a company could manufacture top tier near-midtech levels of quality at a reduced cost when material is purchased in great quantities and labor costs are lower than other nations. If Reates are high end fakes, they have certainly fooled me...though this is not hard to do as the sharpest knife in the drawer I am not

Now, I will fully admit that the Chinese government is a bad actor on many, many fronts. Devaluing their currency and hiding behind Third World status when they are clearly a super power, etc. Not to mention the ethics of IP theft, human rights violations, et al. However, my guess is that companies like Reate are getting massive subsidies/government sanctioned cooked books in order to prop up the juggernaut production demand in order to keep the Chinese economy humming along since it largely depends on getting manufactured stuff in the pipeline. So they may be a mixture of quality and smoke and mirrors, but a lot of capital ventures can said to be the same thing.

Then again, I'll freely admit that I am speculating here. I'm just another bobblehead on a knife forum

 

[Hackenslash]

Awww..... come on. It's going the way these threads always do since now the same old experts are starting to attack one another.

Did you expect anything else?

The political threads (hijacked thread in this case) are always the longest and most vigorous. Always the same guys, always the same outcome.

Dang. Did you just call me “old”?

 

[rhino]

The expanding spectrum of knife quality (and corresponding prices) among the manufacturers in China is an interesting discussion. Ultimately, it's a good sign for the knife industry as a whole. The US companies need more and stronger competition to push them to keep improving. It's similar to the auto industry. Were it not for competition from Japan and Korea, we'd all be driving Chrysler K-Cars and Chevy Citations that died at 75,000 miles or earlier.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Read 90% of this thread and I have to say it peaked my interest enough to look at Reate knives. I have never held one or seen one in person. But I trust that if people on this forum say that they have a level of fit and finish as good or better than my favorites(Spy and ZT) I have no reason to believe that they would be lying.

So I looked on line and they had a few designs I would like and then I saw the price. The fact that they are successful at that price means that they must be making the consumer happy. No way would a company with crap quality knives survive for long at that price.

The purchase of a product is a personal decision. There is no right or wrong choice. Just your choice. For me, no, I won't, There are to many little nagging issues I would have to get over. First, I would have to trust that the steel used is in fact that steel. I know for fact, that on many occasions, steel tested that was purchased from China and sold to american manufacturing was not what it was claimed to be. This goes to ethics. If they run out of cpmS35Vn, go ahead and substitute their smelted version of it, they(the world) won't know the difference. I am not saying Reate is a company that lacks ethics. They may be the most ethical company in China. But for me and my opinion, the law of averages is on my side. Guangdong province, is known as the fakes manufacturing Capital of the world. Fake watches, handbags, and knives. That's where their factory is(I looked it up). Could this be the same factory that was making high quality, fake sebenzas. I sure don't know. In order for them to take my money, they have to prove to me that they have somehow found ethics in a place where it is so rare. They have not proven that to me. Maybe if the factory had been in another part of China, that would have helped. Maybe if they make public their purchase amounts of steel from Europe and USA, verified by the sellers, that would help. I looked on a few sites and they have tons of knives for sale. They certainly are not limited and hard to get like a sebenza. Which means that production numbers are high, which means that steel import to china must be huge if you believe that they are receiving steel in a country that has more steel mills than the whole world combined.

If any company in China wants to be taken seriously, China needs to crack down on their own government supported fakes industry. I may then give them my money. Till then, my money goes elsewhere. I am not here to argue with anyone. This is my view.

I'm forever an optimist (much to my habit of taking avoidable lumps), but I feel that Reate is on the up and up as far as I can tell. It would be nice to see where they get their steel from, and it would be extra cool/helpful if we had some of our more scholarly members knowledgeable of such things take a look at random sample to see if their steel is exactly what they say it is. I see sectors of China moving away from bait and switch/cheap buck business models, which make sense if you have a largely undertrained and unskilled labor force like they had a generation ago. However, the markets make niches where they can be made. It makes sense that with the right tooling and training that a company could manufacture top tier near-midtech levels of quality at a reduced cost when material is purchased in great quantities and labor costs are lower than other nations. If Reates are high end fakes, they have certainly fooled me...though this is not hard to do as the sharpest knife in the drawer I am not

Now, I will fully admit that the Chinese government is a bad actor on many, many fronts. Devaluing their currency and hiding behind Third World status when they are clearly a super power, etc. Not to mention the ethics of IP theft, human rights violations, et al. However, my guess is that companies like Reate are getting massive subsidies/government sanctioned cooked books in order to prop up the juggernaut production demand in order to keep the Chinese economy humming along since it largely depends on getting manufactured stuff in the pipeline. So they may be a mixture of quality and smoke and mirrors, but a lot of capital ventures can said to be the same thing.

Then again, I'll freely admit that I am speculating here. I'm just another bobblehead on a knife forum

Guangdong province has a population around 1/3 of the United States packed into a space roughly the size of North Dakota. If it were a country, it'd have the 10th highest GDP in the world. There are millions and millions of products coming out of there, 1/4 of China's total foreign trade. It's a hub for counterfeit goods because it's a hub for everything.

I've never heard of the top-tier Chinese knifemakers (Reate, WE, Kizer) having provided the wrong steel. They're increasingly moving away from S35VN and into M390 since Bohler's Chinese production ramped up. In informal testing, edge retention of their S35VN is comparable to results obtained from US-made Demko, Buck, ZT and Spyderco knives with S35VN.

 

[Cobalt]

I've never heard of the top-tier Chinese knifemakers (Reate, WE, Kizer) having provided the wrong steel.

Do you know of anyone who has actually tested for steel composition of these knives?

I have tested steel composition of knives I own several times. But I had access to a device. Not everyone does, since those tools are expensive.

 

[NG VI]

Do you know of anyone who has actually tested for steel composition of these knives?

I have tested steel composition of knives I own several times. But I had access to a device. Not everyone does, since those tools are expensive.

Knife PMI and Rockwell Results - Google Drive

docs.google.com

Amazingly, the name-brand global companies don't ever get caught shipping fraudulent materials, just the off brands. At this point it's on you guys if you don't want to learn the difference between Ganzo and WE, but it's getting pretty tiresome to keep seeing this navel gazing 'well unless I personally witness every step of production for every component I simply cannot trust that it is what was advertised, if it was made in China' opinion. I definitely don't put much stock into the users who make those statements, you guys seem like you need to do something more than work and listen to talk radio.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Do you know of anyone who has actually tested for steel composition of these knives?

I have tested steel composition of knives I own several times. But I had access to a device. Not everyone does, since those tools are expensive.

Knife PMI and Rockwell Results - Google Drive

docs.google.com

Amazingly, the name-brand global companies don't ever get caught shipping fraudulent materials, just the off brands. At this point it's on you guys if you don't want to learn the difference between Ganzo and WE, but it's getting pretty tiresome to keep seeing this navel gazing 'well unless I personally witness every step of production for every component I simply cannot trust that it is what was advertised, if it was made in China' opinion. I definitely don't put much stock into the users who make those statements, you guys seem like you need to do something more than work and listen to talk radio.

There are public sources of PMI testing, with LTK being the most prominent. The ones who use steel other than advertised are the sketchy discount brands (Ganzo, Eafengrow), although there have been some US makers, like Bark River, who've had issues.

 

[Cobalt]

Knife PMI and Rockwell Results - Google Drive

docs.google.com

Amazingly, the name-brand global companies don't ever get caught shipping fraudulent materials, just the off brands. At this point it's on you guys if you don't want to learn the difference between Ganzo and WE, but it's getting pretty tiresome to keep seeing this navel gazing 'well unless I personally witness every step of production for every component I simply cannot trust that it is what was advertised, if it was made in China' opinion. I definitely don't put much stock into the users who make those statements, you guys seem like you need to do something more than work and listen to talk radio.

Where did that test data come from and who compiled it? Very large chart with many companies. I see Reate was not tested. Along with many other brands including american brands

As for the comment. Sorry but it comes with the territory for all the reasons I mentioned. Respectfully, it really is irrelevant that your tired of it, no one has proven guangdong clean of anything. In fact, it is a known fake industry center.. And no one said american companies are immune to this. I am sure steel mills have "accidentally" shipped mislabelled steel to US companies. In fact, I know they have. The problem is that if these companies don't test the steel they receive, they have no idea until the HT goes wrong in some cases and they go back and run a test only to find out it was the wrong steel. This has happened. It's a good discussion to have and to bring up every so often. Maybe Reate is straight and honest and all is good. Time may tell. I certainly hope they are. Gives hope that

 

[NG VI]

I don't recall which specific group this one came from at the moment though

I don't recall which specific group this one came from at the moment though

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Where did that test data come from and who compiled it? Very large chart with many companies. I see Reate was not tested. Along with many other brands including american brands

As for the comment. Sorry but it comes with the territory for all the reasons I mentioned. Respectfully, it really is irrelevant that your tired of it, no one has proven guangdong clean of anything. In fact, it is a known fake industry center.. And no one said american companies are immune to this. I am sure steel mills have "accidentally" shipped mislabelled steel to US companies. In fact, I know they have. The problem is that if these companies don't test the steel they receive, they have no idea until the HT goes wrong in some cases and they go back and run a test only to find out it was the wrong steel. This has happened. It's a good discussion to have and to bring up every so often. Maybe Reate is straight and honest and all is good. Time may tell. I certainly hope they are. Gives hope that

The spreadsheet is from LTK, and the originator of the data on each knife is listed in column AN.

 

[soc_monki]

All these people worrying about if we/civivi, reate and Kizer are on the level. Multiple tests done that back up what the steels are. They all have built reputations in the knife community, and I doubt they want to lose that, especially making knives for high profile makers and designers. They surely wouldn't want to lose that business, it prints money. When do Sharp by Design, Chaves, Pena knives stay in stock? They sell out as fast as a new run of exclusive Pm2s!

I understand if they were brand new companies... But they're not. Doesn't matter that they are Chinese, they've been around for a bit.

 

[powernoodle]

What’s the point if you’re charging a higher price than US manufacturers?

Maybe someone else already said this, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_pricing .