Could plain high carbon like 1095 with very well heat treat outperfrom modern steel?

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shqxk

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I have heard from some blade smith that by proper forging and professional heat treat, carbon steel like 1084 or 1095 can easily out perform modern stainless/tool steel. is that really a fact?

I have ever seen he use his 1084 chopper wrack through several 2x4 then cut lots of 1" robe and it still shave. I have used my Spyderco Mule CTS-B75P to cut the same amount of robe and it seems to completely lost it shaving sharpness:eek: I would appreciate any opinion, thanks.
 
First off, the forging has nothing to do with it, but you would have to be more specific about what modern stainless steels, and out perform in what way? No one steel is perfect in every application. Both carbon steels mentioned are great steels, but neither has the abrasion resistance of some of the modern alloyed steels. Sounds like you have been the victim of a "hype-wash attempt".
 
Which is better, my 79 Chevy pickup or a 2014 Chevy pickup? In my opinion my old truck is more reliable if you treat it right. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that the new truck has so there is less to malfunction. The new truck, on the other hand, looks fancy, is modern, and a lot of people would rather have it.

Steels are the same way. both simple and complex get the job done and both have benefits over the other. Personally I would take the curing performance of carbon steel to the shineyness of stainless.
 
Pick any single task and there is likely some steel that completely obliterates it at that task. As an overall package though, its a pretty good steel depending on what you like. I like easy to sharpen stuff so I like simple carbon steels.
 
It's the maker, not the steel.

Jimmy Fikes comes to mind, look up his testing videos to see some impressive work.
 
One steel is not really better than another, they are just different.

Heat treatment has more to do with performance.

I like the old steels better. :cool:
 
It's impossible to make such sweeping generalizations when it comes to knives and knife makers.

There are many super steels that (on paper) should outperform the old school steels in many ways... but that's assuming the blade has been optimally heat treated, ground to an optimal geometry for its intended tasks, and has a handle that allows the user to make the most of the blade.

There are MANY makers who confuse the idea of a knife's "performance" being determined simply by the alloy content of the blade steel.

HOWEVER, to be fair here... if you get all those elements lined up with a super steel, then there certainly are some impressive options out there. Look into the research that Phil Wilson has done. Phil is one of THE makers that is always testing the latest and greatest steels, and he field tests them for real world feedback, not just theoretical info. :thumbup: :cool:

Personally, I really like "simple" steels like W2, O1, and 52100... but I also like CPM 154 and 3V :). I've recently started playing with CruForge V.
 
I appreciate Nick's balanced view. Could an average CM154 heat treat be bested by Hanson's W2, Wheeler's O1, or even Fowler's 52100? Probably. Could Doziers D2 or some of Wilson's work beat an average 1095 heat treat? Highly likely. Geometry and design play a part for sure, but there's not much substitute for experience, testing and finely tuned HT methods in my opinion.

And FWIW, I consider my own heat treats as average. I follow accepted recipes with good temp control, but I'm no expert and haven't pushed the envelope of performance testing.
 
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1095 will not out preform a modern stainless in the corrision resistance dept because its not a stainless steel.
Also stainless steels are forged when they are rolled out into sheet at the mill. Now that I've said that, Out preform in what way?

As other have said the question really doesn't give enough info to be a truly vaild question.
I personally like and use stainless in about 95% my knives. It depends on what the task will be, the blade geometry and that every important heat treat for that steel and task.

It all depends on what you are going to want the steel to do?
 
I think the OP is asking: Two identical knives, one 1095 and one S35VN with proper HT for each, what has the best edge retention as determined via card cutting or some other accepted test method?
 
I cannot.
I mean you can easily find examples where simple carbon steels perform wonderfull.
like Frank J. Richtig bainitic 1095 or other great makers with good HT.

HOWEVER.
You could as easily find a proper "better steel" that would perform better than any of 1095 superiority examples.
Even more. You could do it fifty or a eighty years ago. Metallurgy and tool steel is not a new concept.
 
I'm assuming that we're taking junk like 420J out of the equation here.

shqxk said:
I have heard from some blade smith that by proper forging and professional heat treat, carbon steel like 1084 or 1095 can easily out perform modern stainless/tool steel. is that really a fact?
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No.

Absolutely, unequivocally, 100% NO.

Let's not even consider corrosion-resistance. Given the same geometry and both steels having the best possible HT, 1084 and 1095 get left far far behind in pure cutting/chopping tests by modern tool steels like CPM-154, CPM-3V, Elmax and CPM-M4... etc.

From a strictly cold-hearted unemotional view of making knives that just plain earn their keep, the principle advantages of low-alloy steels are:
They're inexpensive.
They're easy to work with.
They're easy to sharpen.
They take a patina nicely.
They're romantic.

Full disclosure... I ain't "hatin' ". I sometimes work with simple alloys, because I know for a fact that they can be made into very good, reliable knives. But when it comes to pure performance, I choose a modern tool steel.
 
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Performance is a relative term. What task are we specifically trying to perform? What standards are we measuring against?

I think there are a lot of variables at play here, including long term maintenance of the knife.

For example: I may be able to cut through a 1" manilla rope 1000x with a blade made from "super steel x" vs. only 150x with a 1095 blade before having to sharpen it, but what if I can't properly resharpen "steel x"? Then I'm left with a knife that was only able to efficiently cut with once, where as a quick stropping of my 1095 blade will get me another 100 cuts. Then another. Then another. etc...

Besides that, heat treatment ISN'T always optimized for a given steel, geometries aren't always the same, and few things are ever equal enough to directly compare.

A properly forged 10xx knife from one maker may very well outperform a knife made with a "super steel" from another maker (or manufacturer), but then again, the opposite can and will also be true.
 
knife to gunfight - I would say that good, excelent or even GREAT knifemaker/HTer who had mastered 10xx can get better results with better steel. Just give him a nice tool steel, a CCT/TTT diagrams, and he will be fine.

Because we have to put big emphasis on word SIMPLE in 10XX steel. It is simple cabon steel.

But you dont need modern supersteel - which are not so super :D
 
knife to a gunfight said:
For example: I may be able to cut through a 1" manilla rope 1000x with a blade made from "super steel x" vs. only 150x with a 1095 blade before having to sharpen it, but what if I can't properly resharpen "steel x"?
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That, my friend, is just plain dumb. Obviously, people who buy knives made of "super steels" also buy diamond/ceramic sharpening whatnots so they can touch 'em up. It's not nearly as difficult as you've heard to sharpen a "super steel" knife with a regular old-fashioned whetstone.

knife to a gunfight said:
Then I'm left with a knife that was only able to efficiently cut with once...
Click to expand...

No... by your own example you "were left with" a knife that "only" cut a thousand times instead of a hundred-fifty times... :rolleyes:

Sharpenability is indeed an important factor. Many people worship knives that go dull at the first glance of work, and can't wait to sharpen 'em. That's part of the reason millions of 1095 knives @ 56Rc have been sold.

Modern tool steels beat "old school" simple steels in cutting and chopping tests. That's a fact, not an opinion.
 
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I'll just put it this way, if properly processed steels like 1084/1095 outperformed modern steels-then wouldn't they be used in industry? And if that was the case, why would steel manufacturers be spending so much each year to develop newer steels if they did not outperform the older ones? That would seem quite redundant and counter productive.

Testing done by John Juranitch (in the meat packing industry) indicates that " The stainless knife outlasted the high carbon by better then four times, and it was still going."
 
I think the other side of the argument comes down to how fine the grain can get, such as a very fine edged chef's knife. If geometry is pushed to the extreme, then a small performance gain can be had. Each steel has its optimum strengths, whether it be toughness, fine grain, deformation resistance, wear resistance, or stain resistance. Everything is a trade off. Pick your priority, then choose the steel.
 
"I think the other side of the argument comes down to how fine the grain can get, such as a very fine edged chef's knife. If geometry is pushed to the extreme, then a small performance gain can be had. Each steel has its optimum strengths, whether it be toughness, fine grain, deformation resistance, wear resistance, or stain resistance. Everything is a trade off. Pick your priority, then choose the steel."

Well said. For me, my personal favorite is 52100, because for me it's got the best balance of steels I've tried. Easy to sharpen, holds an edge a long time, and is tough. There are steels out there that will out cut, are tougher and easier to sharpen, but non I've tried have the balance that 52100 has.

As for the simple steels? Only one real area I'd say there superior to stainless high alloy steels, and that is toughness and shock resistance. And part of that is the ability to do an edge quench and leave the back soft or springy. I make nearly all my folders with stainless blades, for corrosion resistant reasons, and any big choppers from carbon steels. I remember reading about a special ops operator that asked a maker to make him a knife from carbon steel because "you never know when you might need to make a spark". Others want a dive knife that will never rust and edge holding is second or third concern. All depends on what you want the knife to do.

Pure cutting ability with two identical knives, one from 10xx steel, and one from say ATS 34 or CPM 154, I'd give the edge to the high alloy steel. Now if your going to do any prying or such the carbon steel would have a slight advantage. Also the simple steel will be easier to sharpen, though CPM154 is pretty easy to sharpen. Everything is a trade off.

End of the day, first is to figure out what you want the knife to do, then figure out which steel and heat treat. Everything is a trade off.
 
I like many different steels. I love stainless in folders especially . I know I'm going to get me but handed to me for this ,, I feel a forged blade seems to cut different. I can only describe it as seemingly a finer smoother type cut. I can feel it in the blade as I use it. Again this is just how it feels for me. I know I have at least one of almost everything available except 3V . I plan to try some in near future. I also really like S35V if you get a good cutting edge on it its pretty hard to beat.
 
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