Could plain high carbon like 1095 with very well heat treat outperfrom modern steel?

[Drew Riley]

That, my friend, is just plain dumb. Obviously, people who buy knives made of "super steels" also buy diamond/ceramic sharpening whatnots so they can touch 'em up. It's not nearly as difficult as you've heard to sharpen a "super steel" knife with a regular old-fashioned whetstone.

My own intelligence not withstanding, I think you missed the point of my post. That said, I would argue (and have observed this as fact) that not everyone who buys knives made with the latest and greatest steels also buys, or even remotely knows how to use, the equipment needed to effectively sharpen them.
Never the less, it is typically much easier to re-align the edge of a simple carbon steel knife with something like a kitchen steel or a strop, than it would be for something like a knife made from M4 or D2.

No... by your own example you "were left with" a knife that "only" cut a thousand times instead of a hundred-fifty times...
Sharpenability is indeed an important factor. Many people worship knives that go dull at the first glance of work, and can't wait to sharpen 'em. That's part of the reason millions of 1095 knives @ 56Rc have been sold.

Let me rephrase: If I can easily sharpen/strop a 10xx blade, getting 1000, 2000, or even 10000 cuts isn't a problem. If I can't easily sharpen a ZDP189 steel, or whatever other wonder steel of the hour you might choose, then getting MORE than 1000 cuts becomes a bit more challenging for the average knife user who has little to no sharpening experience.

Modern tool steels beat "old school" simple steels in cutting and chopping tests. That's a fact, not an opinion.

All things being equal, of course it does. I'm not arguing with that.

My point, once again, is that all thigns are NOT always equal, especially when you involve inexperience (though even big name manufactures get it wrong from time to time).

To re-iterate with a more understandable emphasis:
A properly forged 10xx knife from one maker may very well outperform a knife made with a "super steel" from another maker (or manufacturer), but then again, the opposite can and will also be true.

The question, if I recall, was "COULD it", not "does it always?"

Had the question been phrased more specifically, I might have answered differently.

 

[james terrio]

Andrew, I meant no offense to you personally, and I apologize for speaking rudely. I completely understand your original point. It's simply irrelevant to this thread.

The fact remains, the OP asked about pure performance, comparing 1095 with optimal HT to modern tool/stainless steels with (presumably) optimal HT*. The answer to his question is NO, 1095 will not outperform them.

He did not ask about sharpenability. That's a whole other ball of wax. (But not nearly as complicated as some folks would have you believe.)

Changing definitions and introducing off-topic parameters to skew results in other directions does not change the original question, nor the answer to it.

Modern tool steels outperform simpler alloys in pure cutting and chopping tests. That's precisely why they exist! It's the only reason they exist.

Don't take my word for it, look it up. Ask a few engineers. Ask the CEO's running factories that cut/split/slit/chop millions of pounds of tough material every single day what steels they want in their machines.

*let me head this old canard off at the pass... yes, of course basic steel with excellent HT will outcut fancy steel with terrible HT.

 

[sunshadow]

The only advantage you are going to get with a simple carbon steel over a modern super steel, everything being heat treated, profiled, and sharpened to the limits of the steel's ability (which very few people can do which is why there is so much grey area and hype out there) a straight carbon steel can get a sharper fine edge than the high tech steels as there are no blocky aggregated carbides limiting the fineness of the edge. As soon as you start adding carbide formers you have a problem. The CPM steels try to head this off by homegenizing the alloy, spraying it into droplets hopefully only a few microns across then solid fusion welding them into a solid, therefore as long as you do not hit solution temps keeping a lid on carbide aggregation, but you still often get carbides exceeding one micron diameter which prevent achieving the hair-topping edge that Roman Landes demonstrated in his sharpening lecture at Ashokan this year. What you gain with the super steels is everything else, wear resistance, resistance to edge rolling. resistance to corrosion, etc. I personally like scary sharp fine edges so I stick to carbon steels and have worked on getting the most out of them, but for something that will be used hard in the kitchen I will go to CPM154 heat treated by Paul Bos to RC60

-Page

 

[SteelSlaver]

I think Page is 100% correct as are those that said what are are you doing with it. Lot of difference between a straight razor, a machete,a chefs knife and a good hunting knife. Some of it also depends on the end user, his needs, skills and desires. I use a smallish drop point to clean deer, some use big folders, some use bigger stuff and a surgeon would use a scalpel. I can sharpen a knife prety quick and well in the field, but I don't care to. I use D2, don't chop or pry and don't worry about the edge till the end of the season. My cleaver is 5160, my axe is something else, and so on.

 

[elementfe]

Lone Fortress, that Juranich quote has always bothered me, because while one can assume that the "carbon steel" knives were 1080 or similar, he doesn't include any info about what "stainless steel" was used in the slaughterhouses where he did the tests.
It may indicate that the stainless knives responded better to frequent steeling than the carbon and nothing else, who knows.

I used to say that carbon steels were better for the average guy because they were easy to sharpen, and then I sharpened knives for the general public at a farmer's market for a year.
Now, I say that most people are walking around with dull, nasty knives and that the people who are really into having a sharp knife figure out how to get their knives sharp, whether they're 1075 or D2.
If you're talking knives in the Real World, the single biggest factor by a ridiculous margin is whether the owner wants their knives to be/stay sharp bad enough to do something about it. If so, given something better than whatever stainless Chicago Cutlery is using these days, they'll find a way.
At home, I use 15n20 for the fine edge and touch them up frequently.
In my pocket, anything stainless from 440c on up, I can trust to be sharp and ready when I am. D2 is my current fave. For daily hard miscellaneous use, edge strength/hardness is much more important than ultimate sharpness.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Lone Fortress, that Juranich quote has always bothered me, because while one can assume that the "carbon steel" knives were 1080 or similar, he doesn't include any info about what "stainless steel" was used in the slaughterhouses where he did the tests.
It may indicate that the stainless knives responded better to frequent steeling than the carbon and nothing else, who knows.

elementfe,

I agree with Juranich's assertion that stainless steel holds a edge longer that carbon steel.
I have been making knives since and sharpening for a living since 98 along with having worked as a cook in a commerical kitchen in my younger days and it is shown to me daily with how often knives return to me for sharpening along with testing my own custom knives that the abrasive and corrison resistance that the chromium and the other elements added to stainless steels increase the life of the sharpened edge.

This goes for the best against the best and the bad against the bad in knives of carbon steel and stainless steel.

Yes, carbon steel will sharpen easier because the corrsion resistantance of the chromium and other added elements also add an abrasive resistant factor. The other side of that equation is that the carbon steel will lose its edge faster as well.

I mostly use stainless steel, but do enjoy making a few carbon steel Damascus knives. If anybody wants to do this test with me we can make two knives. One with say 1095 & I will chose good ole 440C and lets have some fun and let the cutting began!

I am serious about this but we will have to wait till about early Feb, 2014 since I am in the middle of my busy season for sharpening and custom knives.

Any takers that want to have some fun? Stop by the shop and say hello!

 

[300Six]

Which is better, my 79 Chevy pickup or a 2014 Chevy pickup? In my opinion my old truck is more reliable if you treat it right. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that the new truck has so there is less to malfunction. The new truck, on the other hand, looks fancy, is modern, and a lot of people would rather have it.

Steels are the same way. both simple and complex get the job done and both have benefits over the other. Personally I would take the curing performance of carbon steel to the shineyness of stainless.

Great analogy! I too favour older pre-electronic vehicles and carbon steel knives but it's quite understandable that most everyone else only wants convenience and whatever's fashionable this year.

 

[sunshadow]

Stainless holds an edge longer in a corrosive environment like a slaughterhouse or kitchen where the edge is subject to ionic corrosion or acids. Because of the chromium carbides it will not start out as sharp as a carbon steel knife can get

-Page

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Isn't AEB-L fine grained to the point that it can be used as a straight razor? If a steel can pass a HHT it's good enough for me!

I don't have any knives in AEB- L but have read nothing but great things about it in that regard.

For the purposes of this argument we are defining "carbon" steel as simple steels right? There are plenty of PM and traditional steels that don't fit the 13-14% chromium criteria for SS.

I think that the only area where simple carbon steels will always outperform SS is in their ability to patina.

Otherwise there is some broad brush stroking going on in this thread. A lot of it is subjective too. The main question not withstanding (I see your point James), I find m4 to be as easy to sharpen as 1095. I'm guessing that has to do with the low concentration of chromium carbides (as compared to a steel like ZDP-189), but it's still a highly alloyed PM steel that (for me) outperforms 1095 in every category. Can't even argue about a patina in this instance.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Great analogy! I too favour older pre-electronic vehicles and carbon steel knives but it's quite understandable that most everyone else only wants convenience and whatever's fashionable this year.

It's not just what's fashionable. That's silly. I pick my steel based on what the knife will be used for. At work I *want* a blade that has an edge that'll last until the end of the week and I *need* it to be corrosion resistant. On my wood carving tools I need a steel that can easily be maintained with frequent stropping, and a steel hard, and tough enough that it'll support a very acute edge, and slight side torque.

 

[Machinist Dude]

I have heard from some blade smith that by proper forging and professional heat treat, carbon steel like 1084 or 1095 can easily out perform modern stainless/tool steel. is that really a fact?

The answer is no :-( Most modern tool steel if heat treated properly will out perform 1095.

 

[Don Hanson III]

I find W2 tool steel greatly out performs 1095!