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Counterfeit ZT 0560
- Thread starter flatblackcapo
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I would get those peepers checked friends. My comment was in regards to the clones of the 0777 as referenced by the huge "quote" box. The copy on the pics above is a copy of the 0560.
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Surprised this thread wasn't about Microtech
I'm sorry, I had to.
And to really kick the hornets nest the 0777 was heavily influenced by Dmitry Sinkevich which was at first denied by KAI and then later confirmed that it in fact was an influence in the design. The real question is what came first the chicken or the egg? In other words did the 0777 ignite a flame under dmitry and after confronting KAI the result was a collaboration? Or did dmitry have something to do with the 0777 from the start yet they didnt want to name names at that point. Guess it really doesnt matter now that dmitry is actually working with ZT. Im not making excuses. But people do tend to be pretty quick to tear into china for trademark and copyright infringement yet so many american makers are quickly forgiven for their shady actions. Many of the Top makers in the industry have pretty spotted pasts and some even continue to this day to rip each other off by running to the patent office when they find someone else has a good idea and wants to keep it in the public domain.
And to really kick the hornets nest the 0777 was heavily influenced by Dmitry Sinkevich which was at first denied by KAI and then later confirmed that it in fact was an influence in the design. The real question is what came first the chicken or the egg? In other words did the 0777 ignite a flame under dmitry and after confronting KAI the result was a collaboration? Or did dmitry have something to do with the 0777 from the start yet they didnt want to name names at that point. Guess it really doesnt matter now that dmitry is actually working with ZT. Im not making excuses. But people do tend to be pretty quick to tear into china for trademark and copyright infringement yet so many american makers are quickly forgiven for their shady actions. Many of the Top makers in the industry have pretty spotted pasts and some even continue to this day to rip each other off by running to the patent office when they find someone else has a good idea and wants to keep it in the public domain.
Dmitry has some awesome designs, not really a fan of his blade shapes though. I saw his zt collab and it is going to be sweet
There are many makers, from the ones that make cheap knives like the one in the OP to makers like "Kevin John" who was a Chinese custom knife maker who started making production clones which sell for $150+, instead of the $400-500 he was charging for custom one off pieces.
Purple: you can quote all you like. When your post says "they" it implies nothing specific about your quote and makes it easy for people to misunderstand when the whole original post started on the subject of ZT fakes. Your statement was vague.
And if you like Chinese knives so much you're more than welcome to them. They may look somewhat decent but as soon as you try to use them for any task that requires a blade made from quality steel that is properly hardened, you'll find out why.
About all I can say here is I'm glad you're not running any US companies, knife or otherwise. Ask any legit U.S. craftsman/woman what he/she thinks of Chinese workmanship and prepare to be schooled.
And if you like Chinese knives so much you're more than welcome to them. They may look somewhat decent but as soon as you try to use them for any task that requires a blade made from quality steel that is properly hardened, you'll find out why.
About all I can say here is I'm glad you're not running any US companies, knife or otherwise. Ask any legit U.S. craftsman/woman what he/she thinks of Chinese workmanship and prepare to be schooled.
You are looking at it through the eyes of a knife guy. Look at it from the eyes of Joe Average though. For a lot of people, ZT's are "THAT" expensive. In the eyes of basically, well, a lot of the world outside of the knife community, paying $100+ for a folding knife is "insane"(Hell I've been told it was crazy to spend $50 on a knife on more than one occasion), so why would they save up and get one when they can get one which(as far as they can tell) is the same thing for $20? Keep in mind, most people don't know about how many different steels there are, and the various properties, to them a "knife is a knife", so they see one they like the looks of, they go for it(why do you think BudK is still around?). Likewise, a lot of people aren't going to want to save up to spend $150 on a knife, even if it wasn't a a big deal money wise. I mean, if you take the average 15-20 year old, which do you think they will consider more worthy of saving for, a single knife, or a PS3(Xbox/whatever)? Sure, we don't give much thought to paying $100 or more for a knife, hell, some people here don't give much thought to paying $300, $500, even $1000 for a knife. But for Joe Public, a ZT really is "that expensive" and if it comes down to saving for "just a knife" or saving for a new PC, video game system, iphone, whatever, a knife isn't gonna be the one chosen.
Don't get me wrong, I don't endorse fakes(and even contacted Amazon about getting a fake Emerson I found taken off), but you asked why people spend money on them, and well...that's the reason above.
I just figured that people who want a ZT want a good knife. When they buy a fake, they are getting a piece of crap. Maybe they have no idea why a knife would cost over $150. They probably just assume we are all idiots for spending good money on a knife.
I guess it's also possible that they don't even know what a ZT is, and they just find the fake and assume it's just another cool looking cheap knife.
All of the above, I imagine. One might see a knife in a store somewhere that costs $200, then find what they assume is the same thing later for $20, and think they're getting a deal. Or they look up "NCIS Gibbs Knife" see a ZT, look for ZT, find several that cost $100+ and then see one that costs $30, and they get the $30 one. Or, as you said, they just see the fake in a store, think "that looks cool" and buy it without even knowing what a ZT is.
You would be surprised, nay, I daresay shocked, to find out how many people either don't know, don't realize, or refuse to believe the difference in quality between the fakes and the genuine articles. Most guys who come to this site and others like it are educated on the subject of knives, different steels, steel hardness, etc. Most of the general public, however, is clueless.
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Unfortunately ZT knives are VERY VERY expensive. Especially in china where their average yearly earnings are what many Americans make in a month. Sometime much less. In the USA though which im sure is what your referencing ZT knives are still very expensive for many people. Especially the higher end models. Sure there are the 0350 and a few others that are moderately priced but most ZT offerings are in the plus $200 category. And even guys who are total knife nuts cant or wont spend that much on a knife. Feed the kids or buy a knife is what it comes down to with many. Even some guys who work for Bladehq who live and breathe knives everyday cant afford many of the pieces they sell. When i first got into knives and for many years later I wouldnt spend over $100 on a knife. It was ridiculous to me. But as I got more and more into them at one point I was dropping almost a $1000 on each knife I was getting. But seriously there are plenty of knife guys out there who simply cant (even if they wanted to) drop $200-500 on a knife.
I really dont know how more specific you can get than by actually saying the name of something your referencing. I guess we are both lucky neither of us run a USA based company as Im pretty sure one of the basic fundamental skill involved is knowing how to read. You can sit and bash chinese products all you want but I guarantee you own more than one, maybe not a knife but you do own chinese products. And your comments regarding their workmanship are simply arrogant and ignorant. Anyone who will make a blanket statement putting down chinese manufacturing as a whole is also slamming USA based companies who choose to have things outsourced to their factories everyday including KAI USA. You must seem to forget that KAI has products manufactured in china as well. Are they all improperly made products too? Chinese workers are human beings just like you or me. And to think they cant ever accomplish something as good as us is just ignorant and is the real reason we fail in manufacturing. Believing your the best and never working to better yourself means your the hare letting the turtle pass you up because you dont think its possible. I will enjoy my Asian knives, just as much as I enjoy my USA produced products. Because by only buying "MERICAN" I only limit my choices. And plenty of USA based jobs rely on overseas production. But as they say ignorance is bliss, and you must be pretty happy.
EDITED TO ADD: my comments about giving the people responsible for the fakes a job is a simple one. The homage to the 0777 is a good knife. I have used it personally and it performs fine. So the people making it arent without talent. And it would be more beneficial to all if their talents were utilized for something legitimate where they could earn honestly instead of such copies. KAI and other companies will always outsource to asia if it means they can make a profit and help keep the USA factory alive. You can either make lemonade or sit and suck on them. I would choose to be productive and turn a negative into a positive.
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I will admit that I had never heard of ZT or any other of the quality knife brands seen here. With the exception of the Gerbers/Bucks and the like I never knew this world existed until I found this site a few weeks ago. Any info to keep me (and I'm reasonable sure many like me) from spending money on a fake is appreciated.
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That is something that is true. In most cases, copies and fakes (especially in the case of the 0560 clone on the previous page) they are usually garbage. And in other cases they dont stack up toe to toe with the originals. But to sit and say that a knife is a piece of crap simply because its a clone is simple pride blinding you to what we all might not want to admit. That everyday they get better and better at what they make. And in many cases they have surpassed us in quality and speed of manufacturing. I have seen some fakes that would drop jaws if they were presented as something other than that. But im sure that ugly pride would raise its head again and the knife would automatically be labeled crap once they were informed it was a chinese copy. We all need to take note though that a company like KAI, Crkt, and countless others wouldnt utilize chinese production for the ONLY purpose of saving money. If they thought they were only capable of making crap they wouldnt put their name on it. And yes large corporations will have an eye in the sky assuring that QC is met but there are smaller groups making excellent products there. And they take pride in their work.
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And to really kick the hornets nest the 0777 was heavily influenced by Dmitry Sinkevich which was at first denied by KAI and then later confirmed that it in fact was an influence in the design. The real question is what came first the chicken or the egg? In other words did the 0777 ignite a flame under dmitry and after confronting KAI the result was a collaboration? Or did dmitry have something to do with the 0777 from the start yet they didnt want to name names at that point. Guess it really doesnt matter now that dmitry is actually working with ZT. Im not making excuses. But people do tend to be pretty quick to tear into china for trademark and copyright infringement yet so many american makers are quickly forgiven for their shady actions. Many of the Top makers in the industry have pretty spotted pasts and some even continue to this day to rip each other off by running to the patent office when they find someone else has a good idea and wants to keep it in the public domain.
I can handle a company being influenced, because odds are that someone's "original" design has been done/thought of before. But when you just completely copy it, that's a no-no in my book. And Microtech has copied more designs, then just the 0777.
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Oh, i know. Microtech has pretty much built its whole business on other peoples designs. In fact I cant remember ANY microtech knife that was actually designed by tony. Many of them are authorized but I cant think of any besides the metal mark bali that were fully thought up by Tony. And if the MM bali is any indication we know why he likes to outsource for designs. Great machinist, horrible designer imho. Literally every other model I can think of was either a direct copy of someone elses work or it borrowed heavily from something else. And this is kinda one of my points. Its easy to point the finger at china and lay blame on them completely for stealing designs but its kinda the pot calling the kettle black. I mean hating to name names, even emerson, strider and benchmade have had some less than desirable business practices when concerning ethics whether its using someones trademarked intellectual property without permission or running to the patent office with someone elses idea right down to completely fabricating your existence and past to sell more knives. Im not saying its right. It really isnt. And when a maker in china puts anyone's name on something like the case of the 0560 clone then that is going way way too far. That is fraud. Im just saying that some of these clones are actually good quality even if the ethics are poor and I have to give credit to the makers who use their own logos and leave the makers name they are attempting to emulate off the blade.
You are right in that they get better and better every day, but the fact remains, the quality of the vast majority of Chinese products is lacking severely. Take a look at any number of examples compared to a U.S. made or European-made counterpart. Electric motors, the vast majority of Harbor Freight tools, HSS metalcutting tools such as drills, lathe bits, punches, dies, reamers, and on and on. Products from formerly excellent quality well-known U.S. manufacturers (I.E. Cleveland HSS tooling, and there are MANY others) that have been outsourced have gone to shit. Whether it has gone to China or Mexico or wherever. I have to say, your statement:
Is just laughable. And you are calling me arrogant? And ignorant? I actually DO run a U.S. manufacturing company. A machine shop. I have been a machinist for over 20 years. But I'm sure you're better qualified to judge whether something is well-machined and made than I am, you certainly seem to be in your mind. I can't even begin to count the number of "outsourced" Chinese products I have gotten from customers to rework because the quality was absolute crap. Parts are made not straight, not to size, not to proper hardness, even with the wrong materials. Even with DEFECTIVE materials! And they just send it right out the door hoping the customer won't check or catch it. If you really have that much faith in Chinese products, your head is up your arse, with all due respect. There are certainly exceptions, and some Chinese products are just fine. Mostly, the ones whose U.S. manufacturers/designers sit over their shoulders babysitting the production and quality control processes. But you already know this, since you know it all. I have actually USED and REPAIRED a cubic shit-ton of Chinese junk, or found it unusable, too expensive labor-wise to repair, and threw it out. What experience are you basing your statements on?
And yes, I do disapprove of U.S. companies outsourcing their products to China. Firstly, it basically gives away all of our hard-earned technology and production experience to the (many) totally disloyal Chinese factories for free! Where do you think these counterfeit products got their start?
Secondly, it kills U.S. jobs and takes money out of the pockets of our workers and puts it into the pockets of the douchebag CEO's. Who then do their level best to dodge paying their fair share of U.S. taxes.
Way to take my statement out of context by the way, great spin move used by people who aren't interested in what was actually said who just want to make personal attacks or push their agenda. I never meant that the Chinese workers can't accomplish something as good as or better than anyone. I meant that they are, in many or most cases, not accomplishing it right now. But rather than ask for clarification, you jump right on my back and start making accusations and assumptions. I also never said I thought the U.S. was the best or shouldn't work to better itself. As you say, anyone who doesn't is a goddamned fool. Again, way to go putting words in my mouth. I take serious exception to your statement that we (the U.S.) fail in manufacturing. There are few places who do it better. Not none, but few. You should do a little studying on the ebb and flow of manufacturing and outsourcing, as lately it has been swinging back our way. The real reason products were outsourced had nothing to do with the failure of the U.S. in manufacturing. It had everything to do with labor costs. If you expect a man to work in the U.S. for the same wage as a Chinese workman whose cost of living is peanuts compared to ours you are a fool. The Chinese don't have the EPA breathing down their necks either. Take a look at the news regarding the atmospheric pollution in China and you'll see the result of that. Summer midday and it looks like dusk it's so bad. The low cost of labor and the lack of environmental oversight make the cost of doing business in China incredibly low. That's the only reason manufacturing went there. You say I own and use Chinese products...you're right. What choice do I have? They have pretty much decimated the manufacturing base in this country. Since we are "Believing we're the best and never working to better ourselves" (your accusation) how is it that we developed CNC machine tools and automation to the level that the difference in labor cost now is insignificant? Boy, U.S. manufacturing is just sitting on its haunches. However it can also be argued that this is a backwards move, since it basically eliminates workforce positions.
I'm tired of trying to discuss this with someone who doesn't listen and thinks they know all the facts without asking when it's clear they don't. I hope you learned something.
Is just laughable. And you are calling me arrogant? And ignorant? I actually DO run a U.S. manufacturing company. A machine shop. I have been a machinist for over 20 years. But I'm sure you're better qualified to judge whether something is well-machined and made than I am, you certainly seem to be in your mind. I can't even begin to count the number of "outsourced" Chinese products I have gotten from customers to rework because the quality was absolute crap. Parts are made not straight, not to size, not to proper hardness, even with the wrong materials. Even with DEFECTIVE materials! And they just send it right out the door hoping the customer won't check or catch it. If you really have that much faith in Chinese products, your head is up your arse, with all due respect. There are certainly exceptions, and some Chinese products are just fine. Mostly, the ones whose U.S. manufacturers/designers sit over their shoulders babysitting the production and quality control processes. But you already know this, since you know it all. I have actually USED and REPAIRED a cubic shit-ton of Chinese junk, or found it unusable, too expensive labor-wise to repair, and threw it out. What experience are you basing your statements on?
And yes, I do disapprove of U.S. companies outsourcing their products to China. Firstly, it basically gives away all of our hard-earned technology and production experience to the (many) totally disloyal Chinese factories for free! Where do you think these counterfeit products got their start?
Secondly, it kills U.S. jobs and takes money out of the pockets of our workers and puts it into the pockets of the douchebag CEO's. Who then do their level best to dodge paying their fair share of U.S. taxes.
Way to take my statement out of context by the way, great spin move used by people who aren't interested in what was actually said who just want to make personal attacks or push their agenda. I never meant that the Chinese workers can't accomplish something as good as or better than anyone. I meant that they are, in many or most cases, not accomplishing it right now. But rather than ask for clarification, you jump right on my back and start making accusations and assumptions. I also never said I thought the U.S. was the best or shouldn't work to better itself. As you say, anyone who doesn't is a goddamned fool. Again, way to go putting words in my mouth. I take serious exception to your statement that we (the U.S.) fail in manufacturing. There are few places who do it better. Not none, but few. You should do a little studying on the ebb and flow of manufacturing and outsourcing, as lately it has been swinging back our way. The real reason products were outsourced had nothing to do with the failure of the U.S. in manufacturing. It had everything to do with labor costs. If you expect a man to work in the U.S. for the same wage as a Chinese workman whose cost of living is peanuts compared to ours you are a fool. The Chinese don't have the EPA breathing down their necks either. Take a look at the news regarding the atmospheric pollution in China and you'll see the result of that. Summer midday and it looks like dusk it's so bad. The low cost of labor and the lack of environmental oversight make the cost of doing business in China incredibly low. That's the only reason manufacturing went there. You say I own and use Chinese products...you're right. What choice do I have? They have pretty much decimated the manufacturing base in this country. Since we are "Believing we're the best and never working to better ourselves" (your accusation) how is it that we developed CNC machine tools and automation to the level that the difference in labor cost now is insignificant? Boy, U.S. manufacturing is just sitting on its haunches. However it can also be argued that this is a backwards move, since it basically eliminates workforce positions.
I'm tired of trying to discuss this with someone who doesn't listen and thinks they know all the facts without asking when it's clear they don't. I hope you learned something.
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I know in these times of economic uncertainty everyone is looking for a deal on everything - I'm as guilty of that as anyone.
What I have done to combat against this huge flood of fakes into the market is to buy from brick and mortar stores or e-retailers that are reputable.
I pay a little more sometimes - but that's better in my mind than getting a deal and finding out I bought a fake.
I buy less knives now that before as a result, but I know the ones I am buying are legit.
I definitely stay away from those "other" places that are a breeding ground for selling fakes.
A good deal is not good unless both parties walk away from the transaction happy.
What I have done to combat against this huge flood of fakes into the market is to buy from brick and mortar stores or e-retailers that are reputable.
I pay a little more sometimes - but that's better in my mind than getting a deal and finding out I bought a fake.
I buy less knives now that before as a result, but I know the ones I am buying are legit.
I definitely stay away from those "other" places that are a breeding ground for selling fakes.
A good deal is not good unless both parties walk away from the transaction happy.
evilgreg
Why so serious?
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@ TacOpsEDC & eKretz: I believe PURPLEDC was referring to the 0777 fakes with his post, which if you google them up you will quickly see that they have have no logos.