Couple of stropping questions...

[rayban]

Keith, which leather is best for stropping, cow or horse?

 

[GRIM 62]

I would bet on the horse.

 

[handamerican]

Hi Ray,
For me, now - horse. Why?

Let me give you the Readers Digest version of Me & Leather. I started tanning hide in 68', come from a long line of tanners & leather heads.

In 93' I stropped my dull Case knife on a weight lifting belt I was wearing while turning my Veg garden and it cut twine like butter. I couldn't find an identical leather so I began to call around to various leather dealers and couldn't find what I wanted.

Got lucky and stumbled upon an old timer who had sold leather in Newark NJ. He told me that the reason I couldn't find what I wanted was because leather people were treating me like a 'schmuck' because even though I had worked with leather they didn't consider me one of them.

He arranged for me to be 're taught' by the fine folks at Howes Leather in Tannersville PA. These people taught me what to ask for, what to leave in, what to leave out, how to process and get what I was looking for.

The leather world opened up for me and leather people worked with me because they felt that I took the time to learn. These folks keep their tricks & secrets to themselves, but once they adopt you it's a whole different ball game.

My bovine honing leather back in 95' did not require any compound at all to work and I was able to peddle it very easily.

Like with all things other people saw a buck to me made and began making strops and hones using most any leather that they could come by.

Of course most of that leather didn't work well for honing because it wasn't processed for that purpose and thus began the concept of coating leather with compound to make it work better.

I have no objection to people coating leather with compound, the only question I have is why use leather at all if the compound is doing the work. You may as well use card stock or a soft wood.

So, back to the question.

Trying to sell bovine processed for honing is like whizzing into a stiff wind given the fact that if you swing a dead cat you're sure to hit someone selling what they call 'honing leather'.

Horse butt is superior for many reasons, not the least of which is due to it's density and tight grain structure.

It also has less fat, the fat content in bovine often results in an uneven surface when it's processed to effect blade steel which means less of a yield per sq ft.

When I process horse butt there are steps in the process, and sometimes these steps have to be repeated. I only stop the process when a blade makes a 'shish' sound when stroked on the leather. Then I know the leather will hone a blade sans compound.

The question 'horse or bovine for honing' is not easily answered considering the variables regarding processing.

I do plan to offer my process via video at some time - getting older, and helping people make their own honing leathers would sure beat having to wake up to read that someone considers upholstery leather superior to our Woodcraft leather.

When I select leather for Woodcraft I don't look at it, I close my eyes and feel it. And yes, believe it or not, I feel every piece. The Woodcraft leathers are all bark tanned to my specs and re split so that both sides of the hide can be used. They are effective 'as is' but again, I have no objection to folks smearing compound on them as it has become SOP.

Thanks for asking, sorry for rambling - I guess I broke the rules on the RD version.
Keith

 

[stitchawl]

Yes I should. But from what I already learned - Hand American Made is not good for sharpening. I hope you will learn this too.

HandAmerican leather is just fine for stropping. It's your technique that is at fault. You even tell us this in your post...

Leather kind of bend under pressure and tend to not just convexing edge but dull it making very edge round.

... and here is where you have told us that you don't know how to strop! In your own words... 'bend under pressure.' Why are you using so much pressure? Stropping doesn't require more pressure than the weight of the blade.

- blade will contact leather surface by very edge and pressure accumulated on this very edge contacting leather will be much bigger then it feel.

Again you tell us about the pressure you're using. You really need to work on your technique and stop telling us about leather.

But this is not only problem - if leather fixed on block, it resist more

Wonderful! It works just like a bench strop is supposed to work!

Green Rouge has nothing to grab on.

I like to use it on glass. Or on MDF boards. Absolutely slick surfaces. I prefer to use my leather bare.

So this is all theory - I am trying to explain my practical experience. Which is simple, once I switch from "Special honing" leather to upholstery - results got much much better right away.

Thank you for sharing your methods. But please don't tell the chef how to cook.

Then I stop learning -

Yes, we see that.

I have results and so far nobody did better. Many did same, but nobody better.

Vassili, if your final stropping is on a strop coated with green compound, than anyone with some degree of skill who strops on bare horsehide will produce a better edge. The silicates in bare horsehide are 50x smaller than the abrasives in CrO2 (your green compound.) Smaller abrasives + good skill = a sharper edge. It's as simple as that!

Stitchawl

 

[stitchawl]

Keith, which leather is best for stropping, cow or horse?

Once you strop on good quality cordovan shell horsehide, you will NEVER want to use any other leather. I'd go so far as to say that even non-shell, just butt leather, as long as it's veg tanned horsehide will make you a convert! (Cordavan shell horsehide will make you go out an preach! :thumbup

I've never seen HandAmerican horsehide, but I did see the prices, and they were good. I do have more than a dozen (probably closer to to two dozen) of his cowhide leathers and they are very well made products that far surpass any of the 'prepared' knife sharpening strops I've seen being sold as kits.

As Keith already knows, I won't deal directly with his website. But I will most certainly recommend 'almost' every one of his products to anyone who wants high quality at a good price. (The one I don't recommend is the borosillicate rod, and only because of price, not because of quality or results.) If his horsehide is up to par with the rest of his merchandise, than it is something to have for your final stropping!

Stitchawl

 

[rayban]

Thanks Keith and Stitch...very convincing explanation.....gonna have to get me some horse butt.:thumbup:

 

[nozh2002]

Well, 15 year of stropping with poor results mean nothing. I was stropping just fine with HAM, but I start whittling hair after I switch from that "specially made for stropping" leather to upholstery.

My stropping may be wrong - but show me what you can do better then I.

Show me that your edge sharper then mine.

Let me post again my prove on video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/nozh2002?feature=mhum#p/u/71/aQPwHu4lxsQ

Now can I see on video better sharpness? So I can see what is result of this - "I am stropping this way for years", "I recommend anyone do that and this".

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[rayban]

That, of course, is very impressive too Vassili.....I watched Knifenut do that when he finished with my Izula, but we had no video camera available.

There is no doubt you can sharpen a knife, and the methods and materials you use are right for you.

 

[nozh2002]

That, of course, is very impressive too Vassili.....I watched Knifenut do that when he finished with my Izula, but we had no video camera available.

There is no doubt you can sharpen a knife, and the methods and materials you use are right for you.

You may check record page to see when he learned how to do this - somewhere around Aug 2008.

It is good for me and I found that for me it is this way. This is of course assumed. Same applied to everybody else here, so method and materials are right for them. For this reason I am asking to provide results. Methods and materials may be different and it is OK until you have same results.

If you telling me to go and do homework or learn things without and details and without doing better then I - this would be childish replay, indicating that this "teacher" do not know what are he is talking about well enough to participate discussion.

I doubt that now it is too hard to find video - show me. Then we we will know what behind all this mentor pose.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[handamerican]

Thanks Stitch,
I don't sell off the site anymore, just through distributors, So now I have a life and items are shipped same day - Yippee!

The borosilicate rod deserves an explanation, it's used mostly by Japanese knife people, but I use it on both those and Western blades.

I'm going to send you a PM in a bit.
Keith

Stitchawl

As Keith already knows, I won't deal directly with his website. But I will most certainly recommend 'almost' every one of his products to anyone who wants high quality at a good price. (The one I don't recommend is the borosillicate rod, and only because of price, not because of quality or results.) If his horsehide is up to par with the rest of his merchandise, than it is something to have for your final stropping!

Stitchawl

 

[handamerican]

I think you hit the nail on the head Ray - like politics & religion, sharpening and honing are personal and touchy subjects.

Whatever works.

I took a look at your site - great work!
Keith

That, of course, is very impressive too Vassili.....I watched Knifenut do that when he finished with my Izula, but we had no video camera available.

There is no doubt you can sharpen a knife, and the methods and materials you use are right for you.

 

[Jason B.]

Well, 15 year of stropping with poor results mean nothing. I was stropping just fine with HAM, but I start whittling hair after I switch from that "specially made for stropping" leather to upholstery.

My stropping may be wrong - but show me what you can do better then I.

Show me that your edge sharper then mine.

Let me post again my prove on video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/nozh2002?feature=mhum#p/u/71/aQPwHu4lxsQ

Now can I see on video better sharpness? So I can see what is result of this - "I am stropping this way for years", "I recommend anyone do that and this".

Thanks, Vassili.

Those are some bold statements you make their, you want to see sharper?

How about splitting split hairs?

Maybe a little Convex Love?

Do we not remember the VIDEO IN THE RECORDS PAGE?

http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll20/knifenut1013/?action=view&current=Picture596.flv


And last but not least one of my faves, CPM-D2 doing what CPM-D2 does best.

See the difference is I will never stop learning unlike you....... once you shut the doors you get left in the dust.

Keith, great post :thumbup: I learned a little something right there.

 

[handamerican]

Keith, great post :thumbup: I learned a little something right there.

Actually it's the other way around, I develop things based on what I learn from guys like you.

Keith

 

[nozh2002]

I should admit I missed that video year ago. Let me have a close look and see if usin same whittling technic I will be able to do same. So far I can do this twice and then not enough hair thickness.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[rayban]

Is he calling you out or what???

 

[nozh2002]

OK, I can do this as well. This is matter of how careful to do whittling hair not quite special sharpness. I will do picture and video later.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[panicotr]

Our local saddle shop lets you fill up a small shopping bag with leather scraps for $5. I pick out pieces suitable for cutting into strops & a bag is close to a lifetime supply. Also make nice gifts to knife friends. I find that the heavy, hard (chrome?) finish leather used for skirts & stirrup leathers really puts a finish edge even on D-2.

One of the guys in the office screwed one of the pieces I gave him to the side of his bookcase and we usually take a swipe or two when we go in.

 

[stitchawl]

Thanks Stitch,
I don't sell off the site anymore, just through distributors, So now I have a life and items are shipped same day - Yippee!

I think you're about to move into the next higher tax bracket. Congratulations on a very wise business decision.


Stitchawl

 

[nozh2002]

Ok, this does not show better sharpness but better hair whittling. I had to pay some effort to learn this, but I use my regular knife which I sharpened today and did not do any special. Also I thing it depends on hair property and condition, but it is not higher edge sharpness - I do not see it yet.

in less then hour I was able to do this stable. I guess in day or two I will learn this trick better.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[stitchawl]

Thanks Keith and Stitch...very convincing explanation.....gonna have to get me some horse butt.:thumbup:

Uh... Ray? Please remember to remove it from the horse first...


Stitchawl