CPM 125v

Joshua J. said:
CPM M-4 is usually run at Rc 63-64, according to Crucibles documentation.
While being harder than D-2 (Rc 60), it is also more than twice as wear resistant, and significantly tougher (20-30%).

Comparing to CPM D-2 might close the gap in toughness, and a little on hardness, but it still wouldn't come close in wear resistance.

I just like the overall package offered with CPM M-4.

Here's the charts for the two steel types.
D-2 (regular, not the CPM variant)
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/ACFC3C.pdf?CFID=1744037&CFTOKEN=58209911

CPM M-4
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsM4v8.pdf?CFID=1744037&CFTOKEN=58209911
Click to expand...

According to sal they run the cpm-d2 military at (62)hrc.
 
Joshua J. I have some CPM 125 on hand. Probably enough to make about 20 hunter type knives. I have made a grand total of 2 knives with it so far. One is in the hands of Maynard Meadows, a good friend and he also does a lot of cutting tests manila rope. The other is one I made for myself. This steel is the most difficult I have ever worked with. It heat treats nicely but is horrible to grind and finish. I can make 3 other knives in the time it takes to make one in Cpm 125V. Crucible made one heat only I think. They must have had trouble rolling it since the finish is pretty rough. This makes it difficult to surface grind since the magnetic chuck has trouble holding it due to the rough texture. The knife I have, I flat ground from the spine to the edge, and left only about .005 behind the edge. In spite of the very thin edge it is still very hard to sharpen. It skates on a SC stone but my diamond hones work ok. The hardness on both knives is 65/66. I would not say this is the US answer to ZDP189. ZDP is a pleasure to work with compared to 125V. My cutting tests on 5/8 manila rope show that edge degragation due to wear is very slow. It seems reasonably tough and no chipping cutting rope or whittling on Fir. If Spyderco comes out with a knife with this steel then they will really have a winner in my opinion. Just thought I would add a little info to the discussion here. PHIL
 
Phill---Wouldn't Spyderco have to retool to work this steel? What about cost? And lastly, is this steel worth all that? It will be interesting!!
 
As I recall, the last word we got on the planned S125V Native was that Crucible was still trying to figure out how to roll the stock. From the sound of what Phil said, they haven't quite got it down yet.
 
The grinder said the stone went away about as fast as the steel. Thanks for your evaluation Phil...Take Care...Ed
 
So diamond wheels will have to be made up to produce a sprint run. Of course the steel can't be blanked and needs a laser or water jet to cut the blanks. Then there's the cost of the steel itself.

I don't see Spyderco running any sprints with this steel. The cost would have to be on the order of the "diamond blade" knives, ie: too much for a lot of the people posting here. I think M4 is about the farthest we'll see Sal going in that direction, and that will probably a Mule team knife. Still, M4 is a lot farther than any other production companies are willing to do so that's saying a lot. Joe
 
CPM 125V, Sal, Spyderco figured out how to work with CPM S90V so I believe they could also do CPM 125V. So far my work has been done at the highest hardness I could get (65/66) and still have some reasonable toghness. It might be doable at a lower hardness and some inovative grinding and the latest in abrasives.

Ed, have you worked with CPM M4? I am going to get some soon and would appreciate your thoughts on it. Look forward to seeing you at the Oregon Show. I am going to bring at least one CPM 125V knife to the show and maybe we can get off in a corner and cut some stuff with it... PHIL
 
yablanowitz said:
As I recall, the last word we got on the planned S125V Native was that Crucible was still trying to figure out how to roll the stock. From the sound of what Phil said, they haven't quite got it down yet.
Click to expand...

The scary thing is that this isn't the top. Sal said that when he was initially discussing materials with Crucible they offered CPM S150V! Apparently that stuff couldn't be rolled at all.

As things progress we'll probably see blades made with more carbide than iron.

Another interesting thing, my Dad is a grain farmer and we put carbide tips on the blades of the seeder (the part that goes into the ground to insert the seed).
Those things smash into rocks at 10Mph all day for about four weeks every spring. They've been used for 4 years since they were put on, some of them are rounded, but the metal around the carbide tip still wears off faster.
I have no idea what they are made of, but to see a knife with that kind of wear resistance would be something else.
I assume the material can't take a fine edge, but with a little modification the possibilities would be breathtaking.
 
I was looking around on the Crucible website and found some changes. First off, S150V is no longer made. It's disappeared.

S125V has a different formula listed ( very slightly) , or they just left out cobalt, tungsten and a few more that were less than 1%.

The listing also states "It is available only as Cru clad". If that's true, whatever is already out there is the last as Phil Wilson has it. Order your knife from him while you still can.

There are a few very heavyweights that I don't really feel will make it to knives. MPL-1 (stainless with carbide volume of 46%, highest for any steel Crucible makes. The other is Rex 121. This offers the "highest wear resistance of any tool steel, and operates between RC 67-69. Carbide volume of 35% ( compared to 28% S125V)

For those keeping track CPM M4 has a volume of 12.5% and typically RC's between RC 60-62.

Just for fun, Joe
 
As far as steel evolution---have we reached a plateau?? Man will not be able to run the Mile in one minute.
 
Well, they can be done. It depends on how expensive your market will bear. Look at Rockstead for instance. Average, clean HSS, excellent coatings, world class grinds and polishing ( you should see the edges micrograph).

A knife that is unreal sharp, and cuts like a demon, but costs more than quite a few customs. You could buy 2 hinder XM18's for the price of 1 Rockstead.

Yes, it can be done. Does it make business sense?

I can't answer for Spyderco, Kershaw, Falkniven, etc. Just try to save up and get a custom from Phil Wilson while I still can. Joe
 
I seriously don't want to try some of these, trying to sharpen out a chip would drive me crazy.

 
The Mastiff, German maker Dieter Wilhelmy actually makes knives out of MPL-1 – or he used to anyway. MPL-1 is known as Supracor in Europe.

There are still references to it on his website: http://www.wilhelmy-messer.de/ and here: www.wilhelmy-messer.de/info/banane/material/messerstahl.pdf

We discussed Supracor and other supersteels some years ago on BF: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-247393.html

Unfortunately most of the links do not work any more.


Best regards
Jan
 
Hi Phil,
I haven't had the best experience heat treating the M4. I keep getting number a couple of points lower than the PDF say I should. I haven't done a plate quench or a forced air quench. The stuff has a huge carbide volume and is very resistant to grinding.

Joshua J., I'm a grain farmer as well and most of the wear points and plates are a chrome base and will see harnesses of RC52-59. In my applications the wear resistance is compatible with use therefore they wear sharp reducing drag and horsepower needed for the operation. Boron hard facing material tends to wear unevenly and increase drag. The chrome wear characteristics of these parts is quite different than what is needed in cutlery...Take Care...Ed
 
The Mastiff said:
There are a few very heavyweights that I don't really feel will make it to knives. MPL-1 (stainless with carbide volume of 46%, highest for any steel Crucible makes. The other is Rex 121. This offers the "highest wear resistance of any tool steel, and operates between RC 67-69. Carbide volume of 35% ( compared to 28% S125V)

For those keeping track CPM M4 has a volume of 12.5% and typically RC's between RC 60-62.
Click to expand...

Ed Schempp said:
The stuff [M4] has a huge carbide volume and is very resistant to grinding.
Click to expand...

something to keep in mind for anyone with a set of Arkansas stones and a hankerin' for a super high speed steel :p
 
To me, the idea of trying to sharpen CPM M-4, S125V etc is not a "chore," but as a knife enthusiast, it's a wonderful and exciting challenge! :p

Ben
 
Ben Dover said:
To me, the idea of trying to sharpen CPM M-4, S125V etc is not a "chore," but as a knife enthusiast, it's a wonderful and exciting challenge! :p

Ben
Click to expand...

I'm almost done sharpening my ZDP Caly 3 at seven degrees per side.
The edge bevel is almost flat with the primary grind.
Very exciting.
Though, I'm starting to learn that any steel I try to sharpen flat with the primary bevel has an edge that acts like tinfoil. Hopefully there will someday be a steel type that can be sharpened at less than five degrees per side.
 
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