CPM-3V versus INFI

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BabyJWuu

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Hello group,

At the risk of starting WWIII ;) would you please provide me with a comparison between CPM-3V and INFI.

I did an extensive search on Google and the information out there does not seem professional to me, rather just opinions from people that have not used these steels :confused:

On a side note, if you have some input on CPM-S30V it would be appreciated. It seems like a nice combination of strength and corrosion resistance :thumbup:

Thank you in advance.

BabyJWuu :D
 
INFI:propietary; hard to heat-treat, and only Busse and Co. IIRC know how to. It also come only on extremely pricey and extremely awesome blades, which is great if you want a knife that is top of the line in every sense of the word.

CPM 3V: More widely available, and the HT recipe isn't propietary. This means that you can get 3V from more than one source. Of course, people who use it are still few and far between-I remember Jerry Hossom uses it in his custom knives, and Fehrman in their line of fixed blades.

If you want either in custom form or in a (for some reason) folder, 3V is your only option. I don't think Busse does full customs. That's to say, you can find a maker who knows how to work 3V to make most anything from a toothpick to a battle axe out of it, but you'd have a lot more trouble doing so with INFI.

From what I have heard they are neck and neck in terms of performance, with INFI winning in terms of corrosion resistance as well as sheer toughness, while 3V has slightly better edge retention-this is just sheer memory though. I would say that in a case such as this, the deciding factor between two knives won't be the steel.
 
for me it boils down to price points. they both are more than strong enough for normal, and even hard use. i just find it difficult to justify the unusually high price of infi knives. IMHO the die-hard infi crowd enjoy the comraderie and assumed status of the so-called super steel. as i footnote, i have a bunch of busse knives and really like them ;) :thumbup:
 
of the cutting info posted the ferhmans 3v keeps the sharpest edge the longest. busses may lose the razor edge faster but will not get much duller almost forever. there have been special busses that cut sisal rope longer than any other knife in the world.you ca'nt go wrong with either but for ultimate tremendous stress i would give the nod to busse.
dennis
 
DennisStrickland said:
of the cutting info posted the ferhmans 3v keeps the sharpest edge the longest. busses may lose the razor edge faster but will not get much duller almost forever. there have been special busses that cut sisal rope longer than any other knife in the world.you ca'nt go wrong with either but for ultimate tremendous stress i would give the nod to busse.
dennis
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Like when Jerry Busse push Cut though 1" rope like 1500 times and it would still shave hair.
 
Jerry Busse is a master at heat-treating steel. He's not the only one, of course. But he's right up there with the very best.

BabyJWuu said:
On a side note, if you have some input on CPM-S30V it would be appreciated. It seems like a nice combination of strength and corrosion resistance.
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If you're still looking for a 1/4"-thick, 9"+ chopper, S30V would not be my first choice. ;)

.
 
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BabyJWuu said:
I did an extensive search on Google and the information out there does not seem professional to me
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As an advice, you can search on these very forums too. Besides, while on google you can do this - cpm-3v vs infi site:bladeforums.com
I can't compare for heavy duty use, I have used only INFI for that purpose. I can tell you that CPM 3V at 62 HRC in a light cutting knife will outperform many official premium steels though, combination of toughness and wear resistance is very good.

BabyJWuu said:
On a side note, if you have some input on CPM-S30V it would be appreciated. It seems like a nice combination of strength and corrosion resistance
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It's alright steel, I am not as excited about it as others, but last time I checked S30V was never known for its strength. To the contrary, if you check older threads, and some of the new, there are hundreds of complaints about S30V chipping.
 
Gator97 said:
I am not as excited about it as others, but last time I checked S30V was never known for its strength. To the contrary, if you check older threads, and some of the new, there are hundreds of complaints about S30V chipping.
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Especially at higher hardnesses. Then again, D2 is also known for chipping. Yet the Kershaw Outcast has an excellent reputation as a light chopper and it's made out of D2. So what's its secret? It's hardened to less than 60 HRC. ;)

.
 
I doubt it's just the hardness and it'll be a cold day in hell when I vote for D2 at 60 HRC or being used in a chopper :)
62HRC CPM 3V I mentioned it less than 1.5mm thick blade, with the edge about 10 per side. Never chipped. And 62HRC is pretty much the max, actually it's more than what Crucible recommends for it.
CPM S30V chipping reports were all over the map from 58hrc to 60-61HRC.

Yes, lowering hardness will reduce chipping, but it's not the only way, and besides, the edge can sustain very significant damage at lower hardness, while harder edge will survive the same job intact.
Here, 54-56HRC edge and 64.5HRC edge after cutting the same aluminum discs:

Full article - Super Hard vs soft edges.
 
Gator97 said:
Yes, lowering hardness will reduce chipping, but it's not the only way, and besides, the edge can sustain very significant damage at lower hardness, while harder edge will survive the same job intact.
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Yep. But unless the hardness level is the only variable that's being changed, it's a little like comparing apples to oranges. Still, I get your point.

.
 
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Gator97 said:
I doubt it's just the hardness and it'll be a cold day in hell when I vote for D2 at 60 HRC or being used in a chopper :)
62HRC CPM 3V I mentioned it less than 1.5mm thick blade, with the edge about 10 per side. Never chipped. And 62HRC is pretty much the max, actually it's more than what Crucible recommends for it.
CPM S30V chipping reports were all over the map from 58hrc to 60-61HRC.

Yes, lowering hardness will reduce chipping, but it's not the only way, and besides, the edge can sustain very significant damage at lower hardness, while harder edge will survive the same job intact.
Here, 54-56HRC edge and 64.5HRC edge after cutting the same aluminum discs:].
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On my Chris Reeve sebenza S30V, I do not get any chips. I do get some rolls, yes, but I have yet to get any chips using it on anything. I did get many chips on a Benchmade D2 knife I had, almost unbelievable really how many chips that knife would get just from wood processing.
 
Hi group,

What would you fellows think about creating a sandwich, i.e. San Mai, with CPM-3V on the inside and another steel on the outside, VG-10? or S30V? or ??

OR

How about Cowry X on the inside of the steel-sandwich and another steel on the outside, VG-10? or S30V? or :confused: There is a decent article on Chromium at Wikipedia, Cowry X has 20% Chromium :eek: and CPM-3V is at 7.5% :(

This would remove the issue of corrosion and I presume as some flexibility to the steel and perhaps some other advantages. :thumbup:

Your input would be appreciated!

Thank you

BabyJWuu
Metallurgist in training :)
 
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Cowry-X is very similar to ZDP-189, and neither it suited for chopping, laminated or not. Kitchen and light cutting knives are the best applications for those.

BabyJWuu said:
There is a decent article on Chromium at Wikipedia, Cowry X has 20% Chromium :eek: and CPM-3V is at 7.5% :(

This would remove the issue of corrosion
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Mass percentage of Chromium is misleading, if other elements are not taken into account. It is the amount of the free Chromium. Carbon and other elements form chromium carbides, i.e. reducing amount of free chromium in the alloy. So, simply put, 20% Cr in Cowry-X doesn't make it more stain resistant than let's say 15% Cr in VG-10. 3% of Carbon is very high.
Try looking at alloys in molar % or atomic count mode in the graph and you'll get better idea. E.g. Cowry-X vs. CPM 3V atom count comparison.

Of course it's not as simple as just comparing counts, carbides have complex formulas, more than one type can for for the same element, etc... Still, it's more telling than mass %.
 
pittsteele said:
for me it boils down to price points. they both are more than strong enough for normal, and even hard use. i just find it difficult to justify the unusually high price of infi knives. IMHO the die-hard infi crowd enjoy the comraderie and assumed status of the so-called super steel. as i footnote, i have a bunch of busse knives and really like them ;) :thumbup:
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I agree.
 
I was never comfortable talking about "Carbon V" steel because that steel didn't exist. I feel the same way about "Infi".

IMO Busse makes great knives but overprices them by 30% or more. Makes up a name for a steel from the steel catalog, and has a great business.

I prefer 3V over A8 (mod) for choppers for it's greater wear resistance.

Lets drink.
 
The Mastiff said:
I was never comfortable talking about "Carbon V" steel because that steel didn't exist. I feel the same way about "Infi".

IMO Busse makes great knives but overprices them by 30% or more. Makes up a name for a steel from the steel catalog, and has a great business.

I prefer 3V over A8 (mod) for choppers for it's greater wear resistance.

Lets drink.
Click to expand...

I thought INFI was a proprietary steel??? :confused:

S30v is a steel I don't like in the least but I am definitely in the minority though. imo it's sole saving grace is really good edge retention with that in mind I think it's a brittle steel prone to cracking, chipping, it's hard to sharpen, more so than other tough to sharpen steels like vg10. I have trade out of the last of my s30v knives and am happy with supposed lower quality stuff like 154cm, AUS8a in folders and 5160, 1095, S7 in choppers. :D;)
 
The point is, proprietary designations like "INFI" and "CARBON V" and the latest alloy from CAS Hanwei, "HWS-1", can hide changes in the chemical makeup of those alloys from the consumer. So, for example, today's "INFI" can behave very differently from tomorrow's "INFI" if Busse Combat chooses to change either the underlying alloy or the way it's heat-treated or both. For what it's worth, The Mastiff is not alone in feeling the way that he does. On the other hand, INFI and CARBON V knives have proven their mettle over the years. So just because the alloy or tempering MAY change doesn't mean that it WILL change. And when a knifemaker's reputation rides on the performance of a proprietary alloy as Jerry Busse's does on INFI, it probably WON'T change. Or if it does, it will likely only get better.
 
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