CPM-3V versus INFI

Brules1 said:
I've always wondered if INFI is a proprietary steel, or proprietary heat-treat of a common steel.
I find it hard to believe that a steel manufacturer makes up a special steel for Busse only.
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i feel the same way. the Busse shop is not a foundry, Jerry buys his bar stock from somewhere. INFI its a mystery steel with a proprietary heat treat, and so its called a proprietary steel. i think INFI is what Busse names the finished product. it comes in to the shop as as Mystery-Steel-X and leaves the shop as INFI. but i would agree with most people here, you cant go wrong if your choosing between 3V and INFI.

i should add, if you want a high quality cryogenically treated blade, then i think you should buy something form the busse shop. i am a fan of Cryogenic treating steel and i think Bussekin does an amazing job. Cryo-treatment is relatively expensive, so that might be part of the costs that you have to pay.
 
INFI's composition is no secret, just do a search. It matches no other known steel that I am aware of. You guys might find this thread interesting... from here http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651522&highlight=infi+composition

yes, but even with the astm standard for heat treatment (which is just a starting forumala, no tips tricks or special procedures, just the base formula to get a steel to a certain hardness) you will still get a good knife out of a2. the chemical spread is really good for what you want in a knife. maleability at high hardness, moderate corrosion resistance, shock resistance. I'm curious how it does at 64rc+ at extra thin cross sections...

it's worth noting that while infi has less then the required 14-17% chromium to qualify as a stainless steel, it has way less carbon then most cutlery grade stainless steels. every .10 percent of carbon saps up roughly 1.00 percent of the chromium into chromium carbides, removing a lot of their passivated properties within the steel matrix. infi has .50% carbon (looow for what you'd expect) and 8.5% chromium. that means you've got a full 3.5% free floating chromium. compare this to 440c at it's highest chromium ratio of .95 carbon and 18.00 chromium, that's 8.5% free floating chromium. at it's lowest chromium ratio of 1.2 carbon and 16% chromium it has only 4% free floating chromium.

so if you get a high carbon low chromium batch of 440c - infi can actually be very, very close to the same level of chromium based passivity. infi also has nickel (tensile strength, wear resistance, hardenability, toughness, shock resistance, lower crit temp, and corrosion resistance).

at least, thats how I learned it from the boards years ago I also recall nitrogen being present as a degassing/purifying element...


you can't tell everything from a composition chart, but you can tell a lot of how the steel will react. infi is a kind of wonder mix of awesomeness when handled properly. you would not be able to reproduce infi with this mix, you'd spend years trying to get a heat treat to get an acceptably spectacular level of performance out it.

INFI:
Carbon - .50
Chromium - 8.5
Molybdenum - 1.3
Vandium - .36
Cobalt - .95
Nickel - .74
Nitrogen - .11

A2:
Carbon - 1.0
Chromium - 5.3
molybdenum - 1.1
vanadium - .2
silicone - 0.3
manganese - 0.6

440c:
Carbon 0.95-1.20
Chromium 16.00-18.00
Molybdenum 0.75
Manganese 1.00
Silicone 1.00
Phosphorus 0.040
Sulphur 0.030
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also this one from here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210505&highlight=cpm&page=2

"It just strikes me as odd that a steel as good as INFI was developed and only Jerry has access to it. It usually takes lots of time and money to develop a significantly different/better steel, and I can't imagine any steel company being satisfied with the quantities that they sell to Jerry. How do they recoup their costs?"

And blademan 13 said:

"Very good point. I have often wondered how INFI came to be. I would imagine that Crucible spent a considerable amount of money before they were satisfied with their S-30V."

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I think the answer to this riddle is that Jerry Busse designed INFI himself. Here are a couple of quotes among many I've seen which have lead me to this conclusion:

Ron Hood:

"Busse Combat Knives has just introduced a new steel called INFI. Historically, developing new steel has been extremely expensive due in part to the large quantities that had to be run. There are, however new processes in steel manufacturing which allow for small quantifies to be made. Couple this with state-of-the-art computer programs that can test an analysis before actual production begins and the costs become much more manageable.

With these new systems in place Busse Combat set out to develop a steel specifically for combat and survival knife applications that features enormous wear resistance, toughness levels never before dreamed of, ease of maintenance and easy field re-sharpening.

After signing a confidential disclosure form with Busse Combat I was allowed to examine the analysis of INFI. These guys are really keeping a tight lid on this steel until they have patent protection. It seems to defy many rules of knife making metallurgy. It also introduces a new steel manufacturing process to the cutlery industry that is sure to have long lasting ramifications.

I searched through every book that I have on modern steels and I was unable to find anything similar. I questioned a number of metallurgists about one of the key elements and they were unaware of its use in any tool steel. I was able to examine the patent applications filed by Busse Combat and the initial searches done by their attorneys look very promising."

http://web.archive.org/web/19980613235149/www.survival.com/mistress.htm

And Jerry Busse, himself:

"Are we excited about INFI? Oh yeah! In fact it is difficult to contain ourselves. We have invested a lot of time and money in this project. We were prepared to invest more until we got it right. Luckily, more than ten years and countless bucks later we hit the jackpot!"
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But to the OP's question... I own both INFI and 3V (fehrman) and both will take extreme abuse and maintain a very good edge. It is very hard to discern between the two under normal use. Infi sharpens easier IMO, and is more stain resistant. On soft materials I'd bet the 3v may hold a slightly better edge, but for chopping etc, the nod would likely go to INFI.

Personally, I think the better comparison would be be between Busse's SR101 (52100) and 3v. The difference between those two steels is very slight. Both are fantastic.

Either way, both are supurb steels and I highly recommend either.
 
Since we’re quoting Ron Hood, here’s what he had to say about Fehrmans 3V.
This was several years after his quote about Busse and INFI.

“Watch Out! There’s a new kid on the block and he’s tougher than the cobs of Hell. His name is Eric Fehrman and his company is Fehrman Knives.
I’ve been running tests on all four of the Fehrman blades for a few months now and the results are in.
These blades have great balance, terrific edge retention, wonderful control and a handle that is comfortable after long hours of hard use. When I was finished working, the surface of the steel didn’t even show wear. Amazing… In fact the steel outperformed even the so called "wonder steels" that we have worked with in the past.
These blades are more than robust. They held an edge better than any blade tested so far… period. “

http://www.survival.com/hoodswoods/?page_id=167
 
I would like to post a correction to an earlier post I made in this thread. In it I quoted 3V's carbide fraction as 5%. I have been informed by someone in the know that the correct number is a carbide fraction of 8.5%.

Apologize for any inconviences.
 
bearcut said:
Since we’re quoting Ron Hood, here’s what he had to say about Fehrmans 3V.
This was several years after his quote about Busse and INFI.

“Watch Out! There’s a new kid on the block and he’s tougher than the cobs of Hell. His name is Eric Fehrman and his company is Fehrman Knives.
I’ve been running tests on all four of the Fehrman blades for a few months now and the results are in.
These blades have great balance, terrific edge retention, wonderful control and a handle that is comfortable after long hours of hard use. When I was finished working, the surface of the steel didn’t even show wear. Amazing… In fact the steel outperformed even the so called "wonder steels" that we have worked with in the past.
These blades are more than robust. They held an edge better than any blade tested so far… period. “

http://www.survival.com/hoodswoods/?page_id=167
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The downside about this review is Hood is/was on the Fehrman payroll, the same way he was on the Busse payroll when he use to say the Battle Mistress was the greatest knife ever. Notice there is not one negative comment or suggestion to improve the knife. No knife is perfect!

Cordially,

BabyJWuu :mad:
 
BabyJWuu said:
The downside about this review is Hood is/was on the Fehrman payroll, the same way he was on the Busse payroll when he use to say the Battle Mistress was the greatest knife ever. Notice there is not one negative comment or suggestion to improve the knife. No knife is perfect!

Cordially,

BabyJWuu :mad:
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I don't really have a dog in this hunt, because I'm comfortable with what 3V and other steels I use have to offer whether others agree or not. I don't solicit business and don't take orders so I'm not selling anything here. But I do have a whole lot of respect for Ron Hood. I'm not sure what you meant by "on the payroll" but I can assure anyone here that Ron Hood would never endorse a product if it were anything less than what he says it is. Did he get free knives? I'm sure he did; it's the minimum price for having him do an evaluation. You think he should buy them to find out if they work? He'd go broke in a month if he tried to keep up with the new knives that are constantly hitting the market. Should he be compensated for doing such testing? He may have or not, but why not? He's not a charity. Would he under any circumstances compromise his integrity and the reputation on which his business is entirely dependent for the sake of a couple knives and a fee? He's Ron Hood, one of the most honest and ethical people I've ever known. He's also one of the most knowledgeable and skilled survival instructors in the world.

Knifemakers, myself included, routinely give knives to those people whose skills and abilities with a knife will enable the knives to be evaluated to their fullest potential, and maybe beyond. Very few if any people here have Ron's knowledge of how knives will be used in his area of expertise, few if any have his expertise, few have access to the conditions under which he can test knives, and fewer still know how a knife should and will perform in those conditions relative to a great many other knives similarly tested. He'll use them as they should be used and test them in ways he knows they shouldn't but might have to.

I've given dozens of knives to people who are capable of using and stressing those knives far beyond anything I'm physically capable of. They do so with the experience and knowledge of how the knives must perform in the intended application. Very few people possess these skills and ability to do these tests. These aren't the beat them with a hammer, concrete block chopping, blade destroying tests that everyone likes to watch. They are the tests that real people, in the real world, using real skills know will determine a knife is right for the job they need it to perform. Not the job they imagine it might have to do, but the job they've actually done with other knives and know it has to do. I've learn to depend on these people to guide my efforts, and my knives have benefited from their feedback. I know many other knifemakers do and feel the same.

Is there a lot of BS written about knives? Sure, but it's mostly by people sitting at a desk in their best mall ninja state of mind, imagining themselves in a situation they've never encountered, thinking of what negatives or superlatives they need to use to get the best response from others sitting in front of their computers. Ron Hood is not one of those. He's been there, knows what there looks like, knows how there smells, and knows better than most what there demands of a both a man and his knife. Did he have any negative observations? Probably, but they were likely nit picking little things that really didn't detract from the overall performance of the knife, and I'm sure Fehrman was told what they were so they could improve the knives down the road. And I'm sure they will. That's one of the reasons we have these things done.

I might add, it would be very difficult to draw conclusions from evaluations written years apart.
 
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Ron Hood, Eric Fehrman and Jerry Hossom = good people and experts in their fields, folks that will deliver an honest evaluation with minimum bias.
 
Yep. Thanks for taking time to weigh in on this conversation and set the record straight, Jerry. :thumbup:

.
 
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bld522 said:
Especially at higher hardnesses. Then again, D2 is also known for chipping. Yet the Kershaw Outcast has an excellent reputation as a light chopper and it's made out of D2. So what's its secret? It's hardened to less than 60 HRC. ;)

.
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A little of topic, but I'm sure useful info to people.

D2 is not prone to chipping at all in my personal experience. but the makeup of the steel does mean that you can end up with a micro-serrated edge that just stays sharp forever (but not shaving sharp, or push cut sharp). D2 in normal general knife use is excellent.

I think the True secret to D2 chipping is people not heat-treating it correctly, possibly not applying a Sub-Zero between tempering to stabilize it, and often hardening it too high for a thin knife edge.

I built a 33" sword from D2, 24" blade and I have tested it heavily and abusively on a wide variety of test mediums (all on youtube) and it was damn near indescructible and sharp.. RC54.. Thats the secret. It has such good edge retention that you dont need to ramp up the RC rating giving it a better edge and toughness that other steels at 58. The Answer is that D2 makes for an absolutely Excellent large chopper as long as you follow the Guidlines of the Steel, which says shearing blades should be 54-56RC. Provides a great near stainless steel with an edge that just stays sharp.. on a chopper this is good.

OffTopic, but below is a sharpness, edge retention test on a knife I made from D2. The special factor here is that is not Heat-treated yet. this is the edge retention of D2 in soft form, too soft to go on the RC scale, but not Mild steel either.
D2 Sharp Test #1

D2 Sharp Test #2
 
I built a 33" sword from D2, 24" blade and I have tested it heavily and abusively on a wide variety of test mediums (all on youtube) and it was damn near indescructible and sharp.. RC54.. Thats the secret. It has such good edge retention that you dont need to ramp up the RC rating giving it a better edge and toughness that other steels at 58. The Answer is that D2 makes for an absolutely Excellent large chopper as long as you follow the Guidlines of the Steel, which says shearing blades should be 54-56RC. Provides a great near stainless steel with an edge that just stays sharp.. on a chopper this is good.
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No question D2 is a great tool steel and great knives can be made from it. Would it really be your first choice for swords though? Real, dedicated swoed on sword type stuff? I guess I'm not getting where you're going with this. Sure, what you are saying isn't incorrect but at any of the particular jobs you can name there are other, sometimes speciality steels that can do it better.

D2 has great wear resistance, decent corrosion resistance and decent toughness but it's more a jack of all trades than a master of any IMO.

Having said that I have both made a few D2 knives, and have owned and used them by the dozens.

That "micro-serrated edge" IMO is what makes Dozier knives cut, and cut, and cut on deer and other critters during hunting season without even a touchup. That, and his craftsmanship too in selecting the correct heat, and grind and geometry.

I think it's pretty much an accepted fact that you can take the same steel, say Elmax/S90V/390PM ( or select another steel) in XYZ production knife and it performs well. Use that same steel in a Phil Wilson custom and you have a whole different animal that performs like a totally different steel.

One tester here that IMO does really excellent work has had to disqualify the customs from his testing as they tested so much higher in his particular tests that they actually skewed the results and were literally in a class of their own.

Anyways, thanks for contributing. un heat treated blades aren't something people test very often from what I've seen.

Regards, Joe/raleigh
 
Would D2 be my first choice for a sword.. hmm.. Technically yes, because it was the first sword I chose to build.

Swords are a different beast from a knife, and in fact a homogeounous general steel is IMO the best steel for a sword. Bear in mind that swords may accidentally come into contact (edge vs edge) but in real life its to be avoided at all costs because you'll quickly destroy your weapon.

Razor sharpness in a sword is not essential. a dull sword can still cut quite effectively.. but a sword with a rolled edge will not cut effectively.

What D2 gives you in a Sword is the ability to keep the RC very low giving unparralelled toughness and flexibility (Bent is better than broken in war) and no matter how low you go on the RC, it has an edge that in Fighting use (not paper cutting) will never fail.

I've tested my sword against other swords of 1060, and 1080 and the D2 outperforms them completely. D2 is also what I would say is one of the best steels for a sword that is affordable. The reason many sword makers dont use D2 is not because it lacks great qualities for a sword, but because it lacks saleable qualities like Differential heat-treat, and hamon-lines, etc etc..

When building a sword or knife, you could look at a few different factors..

1:/ Am I building an individual sword.. Use 3V
2:/ Am I outfitting an army.. Use 1060
3:/ building a small mercenary group. Use D2. (takes 3 times as long to make the sword, but the benefits are there)


in the words of Kevin Cashen.. "if a sword can be rated from 1-10, but a user cannot ever achieve more than a 6 in use, then there is no need to make a sword rated to 10" The truth is that there are steels better than D2 in certain areas, but in the tolerances of what a sword is required to do, at the 54-55RC D2 is Tough, Flexible, resiliant, and holds its cutting edge longer than any other sword without a differential heat treat.

Of course.. if I could get my hands on 3V for a sword I'd sure give that a whirl ;)


one quote from Swordforums finishes in
Unfortunately, like A2 and other high alloy, deep hardening steels, you cannot create a hamon on it. A sword of this material would be just about indestructible!
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Well.. I have to agree. I would stake my life on a D2 sword made correctly.


Anyway.. we digress :D haha.
 
BabyJWuu said:
With respect, D2 is a good tool steel, not a great tool steel.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html



With respect, good knives can be made from D2, not great knives.

Cordially,

BabyJWuu :)
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Sorry, but I have to disagree. What you are commenting on is what makes a good knife? I think you need to elaborate on what makes a good knife in your opinion.

D2, O1, 1095, A2. These all make Excellent Knives. not good, or Great. These are excellent steels for knives.

This bandwagon of hard, sharper supersteels is rubbish IMO. These other steels are often built for specific industrial purpose, no knifemaking.

An excellent knife is one that will keep an edge long enough to get your work done, yet restore its edge easily enough to not be a hinderance.

All good simple carbon steels will hold an edge long enough for real use, and be tough enough to keep that edge and not chip. All the simple carbon steels will strop sharp readily.. IMO this is what makes an excellent knife steel.

I'm tired of Armchair type knife steels that you can sharpen to a bleeding edge with 30 minutes on a diamond edge pro etc etc.

in real life knife use, you are going to be carrying a small pocket stone, or possibly nothing at all to sharpen your knife. An Excellent knife steel is one that you can use in All occasions.. Anything else is really for building a dedicated specialized tool.

In Real Life, I'll take O1 @ 57RC over something like M4, or even 3V, if I knew that I'd be away from base for an extended time. The knife has to work for you, not against you.
 
There seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread. INFI has a known and easily available composition. It has not changed over the years, with the exception of M-INFI (Which was called M-INFI, not INFI). Not only is the steel itself completely unique, the heat treatment it receives is also unique.
 
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