CPM-Cruwear vs Cruwear? Any difference?

Any steel in the "S--" series is a PM steel made by Crucible, hence the "CPM" prefix.

Another maker is Carpenter, their PM made steels are often prefixed "CTS". There are also other terms used such as "micro melt" that are just another way of saying it's a PM steel. CTS-XHP is an example of this, it's essentially a very high hardness/toughness derivative of 440C with increased C and Cr made using PM technology (it's also known as 440XH).
 
CTS-XHP is an example of this, it's essentially a very high hardness/toughness derivative of 440C with increased C and Cr made using PM technology (it's also known as 440X)

CTS-XHP is a stainless version of D2, not 440C. Yes, it's a powder version of 440XH, same composition as XHP. CTS 40CP is the powder version of 440C.


Joe
 
So where I was trying to go with this post was focusing on performance on CPM-Cruwear. According to crucible regular cruwear isn't as tough or have the wear resistance as M4 but I have heard a lot of talk that the CPM version is closer to 3v in toughness, Very similar to PD-1 which I would think would have higher toughness than M-4 with slightly less wear resistance. Anyone have any ideas where the newer CPM Cruwear will fall in toughness between CPM-M4, CPM-3v and PD-1. What got me started with all this was I have both the CPM-Cruwear and CPM-M4 Para 2 and I was trying to decide which one to edc and toughness and edge stability are important to me.
 
So where I was trying to go with this post was focusing on performance on CPM-Cruwear. According to crucible regular cruwear isn't as tough or have the wear resistance as M4 but I have heard a lot of talk that the CPM version is closer to 3v in toughness, Very similar to PD-1 which I would think would have higher toughness than M-4 with slightly less wear resistance. Anyone have any ideas where the newer CPM Cruwear will fall in toughness between CPM-M4, CPM-3v and PD-1. What got me started with all this was I have both the CPM-Cruwear and CPM-M4 Para 2 and I was trying to decide which one to edc and toughness and edge stability are important to me.



It's in-between both 3v and M4 for wear resistance

Lower toughness then 3v but more then M4
 
CPM CruWear(Crucible) - Air hardening, tool steel. Wear resistance is higher than AISI D2 tool steel, and toughness is higher compared to AISI M2 high speed tool steel. Overall, great combination of wear resistance and toughness. Crucible tool selector on their website doesn't specifically state that CruWear is made using CPM process, and to add to the confusion, there are references to CPM CruWear. I do not know if in the past CruWear was made as an ingot steel, but as of now(2014), according to the Crucible sales rep, CruWear is made only as a CPM steel.

Manufacturing Technology - CPM

Country - United States(US)

Known Aliases:
Crucible - CruWear, Crucible - Cru-Wear

Standard Specs
W-Nr - 1.2895

Proprietary Equivalents
Carpenter - PD1
Carpenter - Micro-Melt PD#1
Carpenter - Micro-Melt PD1
Carpenter - SB Wear
International Tool Steel - ITS Special
Latrobe - Lescowear
Latrobe - PGK
Latrobe - LSS PGK
Lohmann - PGK
Spectrum Metal Solutions - Spectrumwear
Teledyne Vasco - Vascowear
Zapp - Z-Wear

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=cpm+cruwear

The difference between 3V and Cruwear.

index_zpsgbl5au57.jpg


The graph is interactive if you follow this link.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=cpm cruwear, 3v&hrn=1&gm=0
 
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If you are going to be beating on your blade to the point that you could possibly notice some sort of difference between 3V and CruWear, you are probably well beyond the design tolerance/usage that the PM2 was made for.
 
No one else makes "S30v" I wouldn't get fixed on what's written on the blade. Having "CPM" written on the blade is not the determining factor on if the steel is CPM or not.
 
Again, all the CPM process does is prevent the carbides from clumping together in high alloy steels.

Finer carbides not grain.

The carbides form at the boundaries of grain or in the grain.

If they are huge nd clumping it reduces the ease of sharpening and toughness but not the wear resistance.

The grain size is affected by the heat treatment not the CPM

How much of a difference does CPM make to cruwear?

Depends how much sharpening and using one does.

Some may see huge gains. Some won't see any.

Not something you have to worry about. It's all CPM Cruwear now
 
The grain structure of the CPM steel is much more even, producing a superior product.

Not my experience chopping wood with S30V and CPM154cm, even at 20 degrees per side...

And the issue was not chipping, but micro-folds, which are probably hard to detect for most people. Factor in all the gross issues we've seen over the years with S35VN (the JDavis882 rope cutting and whatnot), and the idea that this process is inherently superior for cutting edges is dubious in the extreme...

Gaston
 
Not my experience chopping wood with S30V and CPM154cm, even at 20 degrees per side...

And the issue was not chipping, but micro-folds, which are probably hard to detect for most people. Factor in all the gross issues we've seen over the years with S35VN (the JDavis882 rope cutting and whatnot), and the idea that this process is inherently superior for cutting edges is dubious in the extreme...

Gaston

Gaston444,

Please correct me if I have misinterpreted what you are saying, as I try to understand your comments as related to your first hand experiences and knowledge.

I do not believe there is a direct comparative traditional steel (non PM process manufacture) for S30V and S35VN that you have referenced, so I am leaving them out in this post. Additionally, these would not be steel choices I would select in the design phase of a chopper. I think at this point potentially better to narrow the discussion back to CPM vs. Traditional manufacture (non-PM) per the OP.

CPM154cm however is 154cm manufactured using CPM process. Are you saying that you believe 154cm to be superior to CPM154cm, and if so in what way?

I have learned through the years that many times there are outlying factors that I am just not understanding, or based on my experiences am resistant to accept. Experiencing things from others perspectives can be enlightening.
 
Again, all the CPM process does is prevent the carbides from clumping together in high alloy steels.

Finer carbides not grain.

The carbides form at the boundaries of grain or in the grain.

If they are huge nd clumping it reduces the ease of sharpening and toughness but not the wear resistance.

The grain size is affected by the heat treatment not the CPM

How much of a difference does CPM make to cruwear?

Depends how much sharpening and using one does.

Some may see huge gains. Some won't see any.

Not something you have to worry about. It's all CPM Cruwear now

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I am confused by some of your comments, hoping you might help to clarify for me.

Again, all the CPM process does is prevent the carbides from clumping together in high alloy steels.
I would add reduces clumping (segregation ) of all elements & alloys in the entire mix, including both primary & secondary carbides. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?

Finer carbides not grain.
(Finer aka smaller) Therefore the overall surface area is greater (same volume of anything in smaller pieces nets greater surface area, thereby increasing bonding area - my previously posted concrete analogy comes to mind) and the blend is more homogeneous (uniform in structure or composition throughout its entirety), effectively less segregation (clumping) of elements & alloys in the mix. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?

The carbides form at the boundaries of grain or in the grain.

If they are huge nd clumping it reduces the ease of sharpening and toughness but not the wear resistance.
The larger the clumping, the greater there is potential for dislodgement or de-socketing of the carbides that are exposed at the surface (apex as example, as well the bevels forming the cutting edge). Reduction of clumping (segregation) will make sharpening and toughness more consistent over life-cycle. Reducing potential for de-socketing of carbides at the cutting edge should increase wear resistance (provided we agree carbides in general increase wear resistance). I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?

The grain size is affected by the heat treatment not the CPM
If the blend is more homogeneous, the process of heat treatment & tempering will be more uniform and the resultant grain size will be more consistent. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?

How much of a difference does CPM make to cruwear?
I'd say that is subjective.
Depends how much sharpening and using one does.
Total agreement.

Some may see huge gains. Some won't see any.
Total agreement (based on above - how much use).

Not something you have to worry about. It's all CPM Cruwear now

I freely admit, that I have no formal education in metallurgy. What have learned has taught me that I "know" less and less the more I learn (kind of seems to be a diminishing return on my investment ..., but there is a greater overall understanding). What I have learned is the blending of specific research for answers combined with first hand experiences (leave me continually asking why), and a fundamental need to understand the why and the how that goes along with the pure joy of using a tool first hand that just excels at a task.

I look forward to learning more about your perspectives on these things. I know you use your knives, as do I, and I respect those with first hand usage experiences. I hope to be able to hook up first hand with you and share some of your infatuation of putting Puukkos to wood (axes, tomahawks and all sharps included with respect to all).

Regards,
 
CPM Cru-wear or Z-Wear is a great steel that I am making extensive use of in my mid sized blades that see hard use but need excellent edge retention and the ability to take thin edges. It is very carbide heavy so I would not use the the Non PM version.

With the HT I am using- avoiding secondary hardening bump and tempering to 61, this stuff has better edge retention than 3V (And is harder to grind and finish) and is probably less tough but I have yet to do a destruction test on a blade. However it takes a thin edge just like 3V and I've had no issues with rolling or chipping. I do my 3V knives of the same size with a high austenization temp for alot of carbide formation and then temper to 62. I am replacing 3V with Z wear/ CPM Cru-wear in most of my mid sized blade. This is a steel that I think has the capacity to bridge the wear resistance gap between 3V and M4 without losing much toughness.

Its also worth noting that CPM Cruwear and Z-wear are the same composition made with the same process but the Data sheets and HT protocols are different. I had to make alot of phone calls to the people at Crucible and Zapp to find out what exactly was going on.I use the Zapp data sheet for HT protocol.
 
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Thanks for the info. I will probably be making a knife or two with CruWear in the next year.
 
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