- Joined
- Mar 22, 2014
- Messages
- 5,367
Spey:
I am confused by some of your comments, hoping you might help to clarify for me.
No problem, I see that the spirit of your post is one of sincere curiosity.
We are much alike we always ask why even when the answer is just because hahaha.
I don't claim to know all and like yourself I am always learning more.
You seek a more complex answer to things but if you can't explain things in simple terms then it will be a very lonely excitement you will feel when other can't understand what makes it so exciting.
True understanding of anything means you can explain it in a simple way so anyone can understand.
I don't claim to be there. But that is the goal. So that we can have a more educated community that well raise the demand for higher performance cutlery.
I hope in my lifetime I am able to see what is truly possible for cutlery.
Again, all the CPM process does is prevent the carbides from clumping together in high alloy steels.
I would add reduces clumping (segregation ) of all elements & alloys in the entire mix, including both primary & secondary carbides. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
It's easy to overcomplicate it. All that the PM process does is make tool steels more useful as knife steels
Finer carbides not grain.
(Finer aka smaller) Therefore the overall surface area is greater (same volume of anything in smaller pieces nets greater surface area, thereby increasing bonding area - my previously posted concrete analogy comes to mind) and the blend is more homogeneous (uniform in structure or composition throughout its entirety), effectively less segregation (clumping) of elements & alloys in the mix. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
Nah a simple answer is always better unless someone like yourself has a penchant for the finer details and understanding of thing.
Why? It's intimidating for new people to learn. When it can just be explained simple and easy for ALL of us to understand to some degree.
The grain is not to be confused with the carbides . The grain is the iron. each grain is a cluster of iron atoms that grows into polygonal crystal structures until running into an adjacent cluster which is time and temperature dependant. The carbon and other alloy fit IN the grain and it's boundaries. The carbides have independent sizes and Hardness.
Hardness varies due to Carbide alloy, size as well but higher volumes means less size control due to the carbides having an affinity to cluster with other groups of surrounding carbides and they solidifying before the rest of the material trapping large clumps in the steel.
the PM process only refines the alloying and elements used to make carbides by cooling them faster as independent droplets otherwise a cast ingot would not cool fast enough to prevent the high volume of carbides from clumping together which would result in more inconsistent sizes of carbides which effects the performance.
Uniform carbide size, and finer. But its not as fine as the cementite (iron carbides) which are the primary carbides in simpler carbon steels.
Less is more if you want the Finest carbides
Also the grain size all depends on the time and temperatures used for the normalizing, austenizing, quenching and tempering.
Which is beyond me, can take a lifetime to develop the skills, experience master an alloy and make the best recipe.
Knowing and doing are different things.
The carbides form at the boundaries of grain or in the grain.
If they are huge nd clumping it reduces the ease of sharpening and toughness but not the wear resistance.
The larger the clumping, the greater there is potential for dislodgement or de-socketing of the carbides that are exposed at the surface (apex as example, as well the bevels forming the cutting edge). Reduction of clumping (segregation) will make sharpening and toughness more consistent over life-cycle. Reducing potential for de-socketing of carbides at the cutting edge should increase wear resistance (provided we agree carbides in general increase wear resistance). I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
There are different PM process that produce different size carbides.
For instance Microclean from Bohler Uddelohm producing the finest of the big three.
Finer carbides aren't always best either. It depends on what edge finish the user prefers and what task is at hand.
Sometimes the larger carbides are preferred for a very aggressive polished toothy edge.
So you see you must be a knife sharpener, a user, plus some understanding of materials science and metallurgy to get a complete picture of what's going on.
If You could be a master at each field. (Which I am not) what great knowledge and experience you would have!
But that doesn't mean someone who cares to know little can't enjoy an awesome blade. My wife doesn't care. But she loves the sharp kitchen knives hahaha.
The grain size is affected by the heat treatment not the CPM
If the blend is more homogeneous, the process of heat treatment & tempering will be more uniform and the resultant grain size will be more consistent. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
You don't need a PM process to do that.
That's why you will never see CPM 1095
Remember it's just a way to refine high volume tool steels which will make tool steels better knife steels then non pm tool steels.
How much of a difference does CPM make to cruwear?
I'd say that is subjective.
Depends how much sharpening and using one does.
Total agreement.
Some may see huge gains. Some won't see any.
Total agreement (based on above - how much use).
Not something you have to worry about. It's all CPM Cruwear now
I freely admit, that I have no formal education in metallurgy. What have learned has taught me that I "know" less and less the more I learn (kind of seems to be a diminishing return on my investment ..., but there is a greater overall understanding). What I have learned is the blending of specific research for answers combined with first hand experiences (leave me continually asking why), and a fundamental need to understand the why and the how that goes along with the pure joy of using a tool first hand that just excels at a task.
I'm not much different I learn from anecdotal evidence and what I read and practice.
Again to get a complete understanding of knife steels you have to investigate more then just the metallurgy.
It's the sharpening, the using, and ultimately making of the knives that will give you the "why" you seek.
Then you start to see the differences between theories and practice due to all the variables.
I look forward to learning more about your perspectives on these things. I know you use your knives, as do I, and I respect those with first hand usage experiences. I hope to be able to hook up first hand with you and share some of your infatuation of putting Puukkos to wood (axes, tomahawks and all sharps included with respect to all).
Regards
Dude, that would be awesome.
Take care Bro
Shawn.
I am confused by some of your comments, hoping you might help to clarify for me.
No problem, I see that the spirit of your post is one of sincere curiosity.
We are much alike we always ask why even when the answer is just because hahaha.
I don't claim to know all and like yourself I am always learning more.
You seek a more complex answer to things but if you can't explain things in simple terms then it will be a very lonely excitement you will feel when other can't understand what makes it so exciting.
True understanding of anything means you can explain it in a simple way so anyone can understand.
I don't claim to be there. But that is the goal. So that we can have a more educated community that well raise the demand for higher performance cutlery.
I hope in my lifetime I am able to see what is truly possible for cutlery.
Again, all the CPM process does is prevent the carbides from clumping together in high alloy steels.
I would add reduces clumping (segregation ) of all elements & alloys in the entire mix, including both primary & secondary carbides. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
It's easy to overcomplicate it. All that the PM process does is make tool steels more useful as knife steels
Finer carbides not grain.
(Finer aka smaller) Therefore the overall surface area is greater (same volume of anything in smaller pieces nets greater surface area, thereby increasing bonding area - my previously posted concrete analogy comes to mind) and the blend is more homogeneous (uniform in structure or composition throughout its entirety), effectively less segregation (clumping) of elements & alloys in the mix. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
Nah a simple answer is always better unless someone like yourself has a penchant for the finer details and understanding of thing.
Why? It's intimidating for new people to learn. When it can just be explained simple and easy for ALL of us to understand to some degree.
The grain is not to be confused with the carbides . The grain is the iron. each grain is a cluster of iron atoms that grows into polygonal crystal structures until running into an adjacent cluster which is time and temperature dependant. The carbon and other alloy fit IN the grain and it's boundaries. The carbides have independent sizes and Hardness.
Hardness varies due to Carbide alloy, size as well but higher volumes means less size control due to the carbides having an affinity to cluster with other groups of surrounding carbides and they solidifying before the rest of the material trapping large clumps in the steel.
the PM process only refines the alloying and elements used to make carbides by cooling them faster as independent droplets otherwise a cast ingot would not cool fast enough to prevent the high volume of carbides from clumping together which would result in more inconsistent sizes of carbides which effects the performance.
Uniform carbide size, and finer. But its not as fine as the cementite (iron carbides) which are the primary carbides in simpler carbon steels.
Less is more if you want the Finest carbides
Also the grain size all depends on the time and temperatures used for the normalizing, austenizing, quenching and tempering.
Which is beyond me, can take a lifetime to develop the skills, experience master an alloy and make the best recipe.
Knowing and doing are different things.
The carbides form at the boundaries of grain or in the grain.
If they are huge nd clumping it reduces the ease of sharpening and toughness but not the wear resistance.
The larger the clumping, the greater there is potential for dislodgement or de-socketing of the carbides that are exposed at the surface (apex as example, as well the bevels forming the cutting edge). Reduction of clumping (segregation) will make sharpening and toughness more consistent over life-cycle. Reducing potential for de-socketing of carbides at the cutting edge should increase wear resistance (provided we agree carbides in general increase wear resistance). I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
There are different PM process that produce different size carbides.
For instance Microclean from Bohler Uddelohm producing the finest of the big three.
Finer carbides aren't always best either. It depends on what edge finish the user prefers and what task is at hand.
Sometimes the larger carbides are preferred for a very aggressive polished toothy edge.
So you see you must be a knife sharpener, a user, plus some understanding of materials science and metallurgy to get a complete picture of what's going on.
If You could be a master at each field. (Which I am not) what great knowledge and experience you would have!
But that doesn't mean someone who cares to know little can't enjoy an awesome blade. My wife doesn't care. But she loves the sharp kitchen knives hahaha.
The grain size is affected by the heat treatment not the CPM
If the blend is more homogeneous, the process of heat treatment & tempering will be more uniform and the resultant grain size will be more consistent. I believe this is beneficial. Do you disagree?
You don't need a PM process to do that.
That's why you will never see CPM 1095
Remember it's just a way to refine high volume tool steels which will make tool steels better knife steels then non pm tool steels.
How much of a difference does CPM make to cruwear?
I'd say that is subjective.
Depends how much sharpening and using one does.
Total agreement.
Some may see huge gains. Some won't see any.
Total agreement (based on above - how much use).
Not something you have to worry about. It's all CPM Cruwear now
I freely admit, that I have no formal education in metallurgy. What have learned has taught me that I "know" less and less the more I learn (kind of seems to be a diminishing return on my investment ..., but there is a greater overall understanding). What I have learned is the blending of specific research for answers combined with first hand experiences (leave me continually asking why), and a fundamental need to understand the why and the how that goes along with the pure joy of using a tool first hand that just excels at a task.
I'm not much different I learn from anecdotal evidence and what I read and practice.
Again to get a complete understanding of knife steels you have to investigate more then just the metallurgy.
It's the sharpening, the using, and ultimately making of the knives that will give you the "why" you seek.
Then you start to see the differences between theories and practice due to all the variables.
I look forward to learning more about your perspectives on these things. I know you use your knives, as do I, and I respect those with first hand usage experiences. I hope to be able to hook up first hand with you and share some of your infatuation of putting Puukkos to wood (axes, tomahawks and all sharps included with respect to all).
Regards
Dude, that would be awesome.
Take care Bro
Shawn.
