CPM-M4 Vs ELMAX

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CrimsonTideShooter said:
I haven't oiled my Gayle Bradley in over a year, and I still have 0 rust spots. I am starting to form a patina naturally, but zero rust. M4 is not the rust monster people make it out to be.
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Agreed, I was just explaining how a coating helps to protect it.
But now I'm curious, you said DLC doesn't protect against rust? Why is that?
 
TotalDbag said:
Agreed, I was just explaining how a coating helps to protect it.
But now I'm curious, you said DLC doesn't protect against rust? Why is that?
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I'm not sure why but DLC does not protect against rust. I've had a DLC coated knife (Kershaw Scallion that I gave to you Mark) that got some rust spots here and there. It's still my favorite coating though.
 
seelow123 said:
I'm not sure why but DLC does not protect against rust. I've had a DLC coated knife (Kershaw Scallion that I gave to you Mark) that got some rust spots here and there. It's still my favorite coating though.
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Yea, tape doesn't peel it off :D
 
It's hard to beat M4 at 62-64 Rc, and the only stainless that I personally think comes close is M390. Elmax isn't quite there. Since Benchmade coats their M4 in Cerakote, Elmax's stainless properties are moot. It then comes down to edge retention and toughness. M4 wins both, IMO.
 
I always take time every day to wipe my knives down with a tuff cloth for maintence but really just to admire them , ive never had a rust problem with any blade :)
 
loonybin said:
It's hard to beat M4 at 62-64 Rc, and the only stainless that I personally think comes close is M390. Elmax isn't quite there. Since Benchmade coats their M4 in Cerakote, Elmax's stainless properties are moot. It then comes down to edge retention and toughness. M4 wins both, IMO.
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msass74 said:
I always take time every day to wipe my knives down with a tuff cloth for maintence but really just to admire them , ive never had a rust problem with any blade :)
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Thanks for your guys' opinions. I appreciate it.
 
TotalDbag said:
The edge wouldn't be the only rust issue if it was uncoated. Any part of the blade that is open to the elements will rust (under right circumstances) when uncoated. The coating protects 90%, or so of the blade from the elements, which means most of the blade is protected from the rust issue.
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To clarify my point. Rust on the rest of the blade doesn't matter, it doesn't affect one aspect of a knife's use or function. For people who spend more time looking at their knives it seems like a big deal, for people who spend more time using their knives they usually don't notice it...

that's why I don't understand coated knives, it covers up the parts that don't need it, and the only part that will actually suffer from corrosion is the edge.

But that's all moot because cpm m4 is rather stain resistant in my experience. Admittedly the natural humidity here isn't too high, but the working conditions it saw every day was... There was more than one day where I got home from work and literally every piece of clothing was completely soaked, the knife usually stayed in that pile of wet clothes all day and night until I needed it for the next day of work.

Or it stayed clipped in my waistband as I sweated like a dog for ten hours, to where every time I went to use it the blade was coated in moisture... Yes, it discolored from time to time (very lightly), and got some very fine sprinkles of red rust on even fewer occasions, but the time I saved on sharpening since it is so wear resistant more than made up for the couple minutes with a sponge taking off the speckles...
 
My experience with ZT Elmax wasn't impressed at all, the edge holding just noticable worse than Spyderco S30V. Not sure why people keep considered it as 'Super steel.. it does has cool name btw:o
 
I like Elmax well enough. I have found it to be a really clean, nice grained steel that had no inclusions or voids, and takes great edges from coarse grit up to very fine ( 8-12 k ). I settled on coarse but it was nice to know just how clean and usable that blade is due to the quality of the steel, and processes used in making it.

I don't rate steels by wear resistance. That is a design feature, not a flaw in a steel. Some of my favorite user steels don't have much in the way of wear resistance by design, but they make up for it in other ways. Example, Super blue, W2, O-1, 52100, etc. I don't have anything against those "evil, devil worshipping" * vanadium carbides. :) I have my share of wear resistant steels as well, and enjoy them also example: Cruwear, CPM M4, S90V, S110V, S125V, etc.

Steel designing is done with needs in mind. Tradeoffs are made as there are certain laws that can be bent, but not broken. Generally, the higher wear resistance, the less toughness. Make it tough, with high wear and edge stability ( with higher hardness) and to an extent you will have a steel that isn't really very resistant to corrosion.

New techniques such as the various powder steel processes bend the lines a bit but still if you put 45% carbides in a steel ( MPL-1) for super wear resistance you will not have a tough steel, powder process or not ( as opposed to 12.5% carbides in CPM M4 which is why it's tougher than S30V@14.5% , or S90V@23%.

or:

S110V@ 22%
S125V@ 28%
154cm@ 17.5%
440C@12% ( but not as tough as CPM M4 due to M4's powder process, amongst other things)

Etc.

Joe


* Where is Thom nowadays anyways?
 
Curious. Which is easier to sharpen assuming RC is similar on each steel to balance toughness and wear resistance needed for the intended use. Example cleaning deer.
 
If all else is the same ( angle, width, hardness, methods and tools, etc.) the greater wear resistance will usually be the one that is harder to sharpen. Now, with Diamonds and SiC being harder than even Vanadium rich carbides stones like my diamond DMT's just don't care. They cut everything equally when done properly.

In real life the rc 62-63 Gayle Bradley and rc 62-64 Contego are more resistant to wear/sharpening than my Kershaw/ZT Elmax blades at? ( I'd guess rc 59-60, but that's just a WAG)
 
I had a M4 Gold Class Grip for a couple months. I did really dig the knife but was underwhelmed by the steel. Oddly enough I thought it did not hold an edge much better than my S30V knives and was way easier than I expected to touch up. Which to me = not worth carrying non stainless.

I been using a SYKCO MAXX 375 (Elmax) mostly in the kitchen for several months now. I would say it is an excellent steel in my uses. When it gets duller than I or my lady friend prefer it really is a pain to sharpen. I don't know what the target HT is but I'm guessing high. I'd say I've sharpened it 2-3 times in 3-4 months and I'm blown away by how much effort it takes.

IMO steel is just a potential cherry on top. I say "potential" because that steel may have aspects that may be more ideal for certain tasks than others? I like a very good low maintenance steel. Personally I think making a decision based on steel alone is silly unless collecting and comparing is a specific interest in this hobby. The fact is that even, say, 440c from a reputable company will be great. Buy the overall design you like at a price you're comfortable with. Use, sharpen, knifesurbate, repeat!
 
Personally I think making a decision based on steel alone is silly
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To each their own, but the blade is what makes a knife a knife, and a better performing steel, makes a knife a better knife.
 
shqxk said:
My experience with ZT Elmax wasn't impressed at all, the edge holding just noticable worse than Spyderco S30V. Not sure why people keep considered it as 'Super steel.. it does has cool name btw:o
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I agree with this completely but it has nothing to do with Elmax. My S30V Kershaws were nothing compared to Spydercos S30V, I think people underestimate what well done S30V can do. Spyderco takes S30V to what it should be imo. Elmax done to the same degree is much better than S30V.

TotalDbag said:
To each their own, but the blade is what makes a knife a knife, and a better performing steel, makes a knife a better knife.
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You can M390 with a crap geometry and I can have 440C with a better geometry that will out cut the M390 blade all day everyday. Steel isn't everything it is only part of what makes a knife great or poor.
 
PatrickKnight said:
I agree with this completely but it has nothing to do with Elmax. My S30V Kershaws were nothing compared to Spydercos S30V, I think people underestimate what well done S30V can do. Spyderco takes S30V to what it should be imo. Elmax done to the same degree is much better than S30V.
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That has been my experience as well. I have a custom Elmax blade and a few non-ZT models and they perform noticeably better. Not sure if the hardness was low on the ZT's or what, but Elmax is a really nice steel when done properly.
 
PatrickKnight said:
I agree with this completely but it has nothing to do with Elmax. My S30V Kershaws were nothing compared to Spydercos S30V, I think people underestimate what well done S30V can do. Spyderco takes S30V to what it should be imo. Elmax done to the same degree is much better than S30V.



You can M390 with a crap geometry and I can have 440C with a better geometry that will out cut the M390 blade all day everyday. Steel isn't everything it is only part of what makes a knife great or poor.
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well technically steel is everything :)
 
TotalDbag said:
well technically steel is everything :)
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That's pretty much not true at all.

HT, blade geometry, and edge geometry all matter far more than what type of steel is used. 440A done well will cut very well, hold an edge very well, and outperform most of the usual crap you see. What type of steel is barely relevant. Heck, you can have a good knife made entirely from Ti.

There's no perfect steel. There are good ones for a variety of applications, and one thing I've noticed here is that you haven't mentioned what you expect from the blade. I didn't catch which BM you're looking at (Gold Class Grip?), but you're going to get a quality knife regardless, and in my estimation, the type of steel used shouldn't even be relevant, unless you're looking to try out another steel.

I've tried Elmax, but not CPM M4. I definitely prefer M390 to Elmax, any day, for a small knife, like a folder or an EDC fixed blade. Easy to sharpen, takes a great edge, and has excellent edge retention. Also is plenty tough for everyday purposes.

For choppers and other long blades, however, I'd take 1095, 5160, 52100, or 3V.

But ultimately, it's going to come down to what you want out of the knife. So many people make the mistake of buying for one characteristic, especially one as unimportant as steel type. If you're buying from a reputable company, the HT should be pretty darn good, and steel type will ultimately matter far less in terms of whether or not you like the knife than the design of the knife, ergos, geometry, fit and finish, and all the other features that make the knife a good fit (or not) for YOU. The upshot is that they spend tons of money looking for the perfect knife, and never find it, because they don't take the time to think about what they like about a knife or not, and they lose a lot of money because they buy stuff that they won't keep.
 
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