CPM S30V vs BG-42 steel

rlinger. you forget that you are making that comment to a guy who has a wall full of Tech Acheivement Awards in material advancements and that I have had my knives in both Discover Magazine and Popular Science Magazine (I doubt any other knifemaker can say the same).

The pusuit of the ultimate material is what we as makers do. However, I draw the line at trying to convince the buying public that they HAVE to have the latest fad material.

Do not get off track on this conversation. This is not about what is best for a application or what SHOULD be used. This is about whether the end user will notice two hardness points differance between S30V and BG-42 during the everyday use of a factory pocket knife.

In the car example, I stated "if all else is equal", that means only the top end has changed. Don't try to read in more than has been given in the example text. What you did is called a false arguement point.
 
R.W.Clark said:
rlinger. you forget that you are making that comment to a guy who has a wall full of Tech Acheivement Awards in material advancements and that I have had my knives in both Discover Magazine and Popular Science Magazine (I doubt any other knifemaker can say the same).

The pusuit of the ultimate material is what we as makers do. However, I draw the line at trying to convince the buying public that they HAVE to have the latest fad material.

Do not get off track on this conversation. This is not about what is best for a application or what SHOULD be used. This is about whether the end user will notice two hardness points differance between S30V and BG-42 during the everyday use of a factory pocket knife.

In the car example, I stated "if all else is equal", that means only the top end has changed. Don't try to read in more than has been given in the example text. What you did is called a false arguement point.
Click to expand...
Mr Clark..
why would you think someone else would draw the line where you would draw it?
I'm sure the last was meant for me.. with all due respect,,if any is due you from me..
I know about the auto field and probably allot more than you do but I will not throw it in your face..as you are doing Roger..
fact is all else is not equal
it's can't be and never will be.. again it's a fact..
in a perfect world you are right ,, this is not a perfect world nor do we have a perfect set of standards.
we, I, you, or anyone else are not the best in everything , in the same wants, or needs, if someone wants the customer to have the best, hey go for it. ,
I'm not sure where the

"you forget that you are making that comment to a guy who has a wall full of Tech Acheivement Awards in material advancements and that I have had my knives in both Discover Magazine and Popular Science Magazine (I doubt any other knifemaker can say the same)."
is coming from..
look I don't put myself above anyone or below anyone, that's the most perfect thing here that can be counted on..maybe I took this the wrong way
but it's the way feel about it..


edited to add SORRY Kit..
 
Hell, Dan, it ain't no problem with me. I use both of them along with about 15 other steels. I do like S30V over BG42, but it's a personal thing. A good steel discussion keeps the blood flowing.

RW and I have had a few disagreements over the years, but damn, it's getting scary. This is the second post that I've read today that I agree with him on :)

Let's just keep it civil. We all have our opinions.
 
Kit Carson said:
Hell, Dan, it ain't no problem with me. I use both of them along with about 15 other steels. I do like S30V over BG42, but it's a personal thing. A good steel discussion keeps the blood flowing.

RW and I have had a few disagreements over the years, but damn, it's getting scary. This is the second post that I've read today that I agree with him on :)

Let's just keep it civil. We all have our opinions.
Click to expand...
Tx Kit..
my point was not between the two steels..it's a matter of forse feeding.
:( I am at fault,, I didn't add
just my opinion..
maybe I should take a picture of my walls and post them :rolleyes: ;)
nahhhh..I'm not going there..
 
Dan, my point was that when discussing a theoretical point, if you add any items (such as in your case low end torque) that were not in the original statement you are only being disingenious to the original discussion.

My statement to rlinger was a direct response to his sarcastic remark about disregaurding material science. I fully support material science, my statement was intented to back that up. If you saw that as me throwing something in your face, well...I guess thats just the way it will have to be.

If through science we can improve steel performance 2%, I am all behind it. However, a customer should not chose a knife based purely on that fact that the steel used in the blade is reported to perform 2% better than all others. Design and overall function can play a great role in how the knife performs as a whole unit. You can have a knife with a lesser steel outperform a knife with a higher grade steel based on overall design and function.

Also what can be measured in a lab and shown on paper is one thing. That is being done with very advanced equipment. While the human body is amazing in many ways, we are not highly advanced in our ability to percive and measure things. That is why I still say, that a human will never be able to notice any differance in performance between S30V and Bg-42 during average everday usage of a pocket knife.

OK, run for the hills, Kit and I have agreed TWICE. The world is coming to an end. :D :D :D Just don't fall on me again ;)
 
It's just not simple though
But I can appreciate that..
I will say, some customers are more advanced than others
so if these customers are sold on 2%, so be it. we can be on the band wagon or not..
we all know or should at least the ones that have dealt with buying customers for years
Hype and fads sells product
( I don't agree on the grossly exaggerated Hype BTW )
but we, if are to keep up, we have to play the customers game the customers way,, IMHO
we all, as you say, draw the line some where.
and as I dance to the beat of my own drum I will draw my line where I see fit..
.as will others that run in front of the pack or to the side, but those that fallow will do just that,fallow.

anyway ,I Think something got miss-under stood in the post for Rogers remark JMO. but I'm sure many do not know what you have on your wall.
I see your point of pushing the point..your no dummy..

for some EDC's they are used many times a day and of course as you say some are not. but for me where we have so many variables I will educate the unknowing customer to the difference in the Carbons, high end stainless, and the use intended, just in case he knows as much as I do about it. :) and some times that sells a knife.

I had a guy walk in
that Bought a Randall once and it rusted he was mortified, knowing just Stainless.
it would not have hurt Randle to have explained a few things to him. I sold a knife to him.. :) Dang I think I'm of topic here..
***********
if price, H/T, and re-sharpening is not a problem I'd tend to lean to the S30V

but for me I'll stay with 154CM and O1 mainly. JMO :)
 
No, I think I was able to take it the way it was ment. Its okay with me. I was in a manor of words told it worthless for me to disagree with such an accomplished person as he. ...and that is fine with me. Don't worry about it. I'm not.

RL
 
Personally, i think the question of S30V vs. BG-42 is a really good one. The original posters question about edge holding was a good starting point, and the true answer may be that the difference is not all that noticable, but then when the knife is taken a few steps further in use beyond the typical cardboard and hemp rope cutting tests, and whittling on tree branches and 2x4's, the chosen steel can separate the really useful big and medium sized dogs from the yappy little whiners. This is why i asked about tip strength and edge strength when it comes to doing things like opening oysters. I have an oyster knife, heck, but even though i have an oyster bed, i still don't carry my oyster knife with me all the time. It's just not practical, and heck, i think an oyster knife would qualify as being a double edged dirk or dagger! ACKKK!!! Stupid liberals!!! At any rate, i still want to carry a really useful single knife, (even though i always carry 2 knives anyway). If i am out walking on the beach with my wife and we decide we want to munch on some nice fresh oysters i don't want to have to bring a special knife just for opening oysters. Here in Washington, walking on the beach can also quickly change to hacking a path through thick and dry blackberry vines to get back home because the tide came in and the beach route is no longer available. If i trash the edge of the knife opening oysters and then need to use that same knife to cut a trail to get back home, i'm basically screwwwed. I'm also screwed if i want to clean/fillet a fish along the way. Believe it or not, a Spyderco "Police" model works quite well in these situations... but i want something BETTER. Especially something that also has a rock solid dependable lock when opening the oysters. I also don't want to do the fixed blade thing for daily carry. Hey, i want it all! And, I don't think i'm asking too much. Whether i buy one, have one made, or make it myself, i don't want to break the bank and i also want to do it right the first time. I own a bunch of different knives that are damn good, but i still need another that is more suited for my current needs. I want a knife i can live with.

Which steel is going to be best?
 
Well yes and that is a direct reflection upon my reason for referencing vendor data sheets. My referencing vendor data was admitted to as being viewed as sarcastic. Let's not let facts get in the way here.

RL
 
Tazz,
Thats a tough one. No one knife will be REALLY good at all those things. Though it can be pretty good at them. For a factory knife, I just don't know.

If custom is on your list of options you might want to consider 3V with a DLC coating. That will give you the tip strengh for getting at those oysters. If you want to stay stainless then absolutly go with S30V if you are designing from the ground up. Insist on HT from Paul or D'Holder. I would not trust the Killer Vs to anyone else. They are just too touchy. Although Paul says that Kit does a really good job with them as well.

I guess my point is; if you can design, design with the best materials you can. But for a factory knife, steel choice is not the ultimate deciding factor.

Ontario Knives is releasing a line of knives from Jerry Hossom in May that are linerlocking with S30V blades. They are going to be priced fairly and look to be rock solid. Might fit you needs.
 
Thanks, RW! That's exactly the track i've been taking. I've already got one knife made except for the HT.

So far it's got 4.75" recurved S30V blade, 5.9"x .10" 6AL4V Ti frame, bronze bushings, stainless fasteners, with a lock that is my own design. The blade still needs to get HT, cryo, and DLC, but since i already sharpened it i'm a bit worried about warpage, although the blade is .170" at the thickest, it is more or less flat ground with a very slight convex to it. For grins i just wanted to see what S30V would do in its un-HT'd state. I can get it "scary sharp" but obviously it only holds an edge for a short time. I tried opening an oyster with it and it did so without breaking the tip, but, it did "crunch up" the edge near the tip causing need for a little regrind, whereas the Spyderco Police model with G-2 steel tip edge just needed a little bending and resharpening. Hey, no experiment is a failure, right? The Ti is fine the way it is. I absolutely LOVE Ti. The balance on this knife worked out perfect. So far the S30V is working out quite well in the corrosion resistance department.

Btw, does anybody have Paul's phone number? The one i have is the old one. Also, where is the best place to get black DLC done?
 
Jerry, your just plain mean. :D ;)

Tazz, that blade will most likely warp on you. Paul does a really good job of straightening (just ask Jerry :p ), but chances are your pivot and lock points may move as well.

Best bet would be to start with a fresh bar. Alot of makers I know, myself included, do almost everything on folder blades after heat treat. I just send Paul plain bars cut to proper length with nothing else done at all. Its a little harder to work but it cuts out a lot of head aches down the road. Just use good belts, carbide bits and work slow.

Edited to add. Bodycote is the only place to get DLC. They don't do stuff on a one off basis anymore so you will most likely need to send in your blade with a larger makers batch. However, with S30V rust is not really an issue. If you want it for cosmetics then great, but its not really "needed".
 
My pivot and lock points might even move? That sucks! Well, this blade was done to prove the design and i figured i might not be able to use this blade as a final because of the HT warp, so i am at least a little mentally prepared to deal with this. Paul was saying in another thread that one needed about .030" on the edge of the blade to prevent warping, but i had no idea the pivot and lock points might move. Yikes! You say you cut the bars to length and then send them for HT. Do you not even profile them before HT??? Wow, i have SO much to learn! I was planning on making several knives, at least, but, obviously i better get my education straightened out before i start hacking away at more steel. I am pretty good at straightening things, but i sure wish i knew what i was doing! Hey, at least i'm having fun! :D
 
You can profile before HT, most makers do. Personally, I just find it easier not to. That way I can just have a stack of say ten bars ready to go when I decide to make a folder. Then I can make them into whatever I want and am not stuck to what I thought I might want to do months before when I sent in all my stuff for HT.

Your points won't actually move in the steel. But when the blade warps they will shift on an arch. Then when you flaten the blade back out, then will never be exactly back in the same place again. Same with your pivot hole. Chances are, it will no longer be in a perfect 90 and that can cause binding problems.
 
Ok, now i understand why you don't profile before HT. That totally makes sense.

It's tempting to HT this ground blade just to see how it warps. Right now though, as it is, i have a blade that is a really good example of what the finished blade should look like and it is straight with the grinds on each side balanced. It really is a unique blade grind. I've never seen another like it. It's also perfectly centered in the frame, and there is no slop, shake, rattle, wiggle, or roll... so it gives me something to measure and go by when making more knives. The geometry and everything on this knife has to be just right or it causes problems elsewhere. It's a bit of a pain because of that, but the way the whole thing works when done right makes it well worth it.

I don't know how anybody else feels, but to me, making quality folders is fascinating.
 
I see that now. I can see where the hole when warped could oval. and if especially a critical fit could become apparent even after straightening.

RL
 
I learned it the hard way, and it sucked. :D They can oval, go off of 90 and do things that will boggle the mind. Even a few thousanths here and there can add up to one nasty mess of a problem.

This is folder week for me right now. I try not to think about these things ;).
 
Well, I never have really had an opportunity to learn it the hard way because the fixed blades, which I only make, are feed through holes. I of course have HT'd several folders for other makers and fortunately have not had bad feedback. Perhaps it is because the makers are too kind to complain or perhaps I have been lucky. The fact is it never occured to me until I saw your post about it. When I read it it was like a light going off. Of course the hole can warp just as the blade warps and it is easy to understand why the hole would not proform as the blade can in straightening. I will most certainly give it to you R.W., you taught me a good one and I am pleased.

RL
 
Man, I learn things everyday. I think that is what I like about this business. No one can ever now everything. Triple that when it comes to materials. If it ever does become a problem, they can undersize thier holes and use a carbide reamer to straighten everything back out again.

I wish I had video of myself during the first dozen or so meetings with LMT. Sitting in a conferance room with some of the biggest brains in the industry, guys from MIT, the head Prof from CalTech, a bunch of other brains and a knifemaker! I think I just sat there blinking like a cow struck with a sledge hammer most of the time. It was all I could do to just try and grasp the edges of the stuff they were talking about. I still have to make them back up every now and then. But hey, its all fun, even if it does give me a headache most of the time.
 
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