CPM S30V vs M390

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Ok back to the post, because this has been clouded up again...what is better M390 or CPM S30V. Sounds like from Vassili experience he likes the performance of CPM S30V and from Ankerson experience M390 does best in his test. So now as we approach the final round which Steel will score the KO?

What if we told you other steels blew both out of the water??? Honestly, I don't think either makes "the final round," unless you're looking at a knife that is only available in these two choices and wouldn't consider any other knife.
 
How many times must you be told?

S30V WAS NOT THE REPLACEMENT OF S60V¡

Kershaw put CPMD2 on the spine and elmax on the edge for LOOKS..... Elmax also performs better than S30V and is a little like CPM D2 except the edge is more resistant to chipping and deformation, something the other two struggle with. Cutting rope is a good test of edge retention but that's about it, you need to cut a variety of things to get a true understanding of a steels performance.

It does replace CPM S60V on Military and Avalanche and Boa and quite a number of models.

"Elmax performs better" - what is base for this statement? Did you have any formal testing done? Or this is "true steel understanding"... I cut rope 200 times and measure sharpness - I do not "true understand" steel, just see how it holds the edge.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, I just didn't want to bring another thread from the ground.



I like you tests, and I think that eliminating the wooden board is an easy and effective way of clarifying some test data. But still looking at the numbers, they confuse me quite a bit. How can you rate one Steel over another, when there is a big difference in results within the same knife.

Take Yuna for example, after 200 cuts the difference between 1st run (80) and 2nd run (50) is 38%. Or ELMAX after 100 cuts doing on a 1st run (45) and on 2nd run (65). That's 31% difference. After how many cuts do you establish the winner?

There are also cases when blade is doing better after more cuts. That is weird. I'm sorry I haven't read the whole 500 post in those 3 threads you have links to, but I have read some opinions about some weird thing like carbides alignment and blade doing better after several sharpening... I think the problem is that you're doing the sharpness test in one spot on the blade. Why not to put 5 dots and do 4 cuts on each spot, instead of 21 cuts on one spot. The CATRA machine for example doesn't have such flaw, because it does the cut/test with couple of inches on the edge.

Then on top of different results from the same knife, there is a big variance within the same steel from different manufacturers. The good thing is that you're listing the exact knife in your rating. But still, how can you rate one steel better than the other when there is so much weird stuff is going on? Even rating one knife technically might be incorrect, because the same knife on a 3rd run might show different result (but that will improve statistics). Also, is there a guarantee that if I buy the same model as you have tested, it will behave exactly the same way as yours?

At least the numbers from CATRA machine come from the same manufacturer (if I understand this correctly)? They can easily test 10 knives with the same steel and come up with average number that they can compare to the average number of the other steel (I have no clue how they actually do it).
But also that data from manufacturer's CATRA will be valid only to that particular manufacturer and their heat treatment. As everybody knows (and very nicely shown by you) same steel can be heat treated by different manufacturer very differently. More than that, even if data shows that edge is more wear resistant, it doesn't mean that steel is "better", because there is no toughness in the equation. All that it would mean that Steel A @ X HRC is more wear resistant than Steel B @ Y HRC. Without toughness it is difficult to proclaim one "better overall", than another. Better for whom and for what purpose? ZDP @ 67 HRC holds edge very long, but isn't very durable (at least from one manufacturer). That actually might be why manufacturers don't want to disclose CATRA test results. They have to find a spot where wear resistance, toughness, ease of sharpening would appeal to the public. The CATRA data alone might not speak in their favor.
I wish Spyderco post CATRA numbers for their Mules. That would be pretty awesome.

I think your tests are generally good, but they are missing more statistics to be really accepted. I understand that you cannot test the same knife 10 times, or better yet 10 different knives of the same model, or 100 knives with the same steel from different 10 different manufacturers, but without it I just don't know how anybody can say that D2 (replace the name) is better than S30V (replace the name) or vice versa. In some way you might even say that very subjective opinion of 100 owners from some use and subjective comparison, might be a better indicator than a result of one of your(or somebody else) tests. Another problem of course is that those 100 subjective users might not have the same reference point :). I wish there be more people trying to do something like you, but I sure am way too lazy to do it and prefer to spend my time on something else :). Sorry :(. I appreciate your efforts though.

Can you, please, re post this in latest testing thread and we may discuss that there?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Ok back to the post, because this has been clouded up again...what is better M390 or CPM S30V. Sounds like from Vassili experience he likes the performance of CPM S30V and from Ankerson experience M390 does best in his test. So now as we approach the final round which Steel will score the KO?

Well, I have tested using well established for years testing procedure. This is bit different then "experience".

I may speculate that M390 is better then average CPM S30V, most likely better then any BM CPM S30V, for sure it performs better then CPM S30V on ZT-302. Buck usually do better heat treatment then others so Boss CPM S30V is best, unfortunately Buck is very conservative in steel it uses and we do not have M390 from Buck.

So far what we have BM M390 same as Buck CPM S30V.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I am looking at a Mini-Griptilian in M390 and a Mini Ritter Griptilian in CPM S30V. Thanks Vassili.

Ahhhh, I see. That introduces the other big variable there, which is blade shape. I really like the Ritter blade shape, but YMMV. I like it enough that I might buy that over a "better" steel. You have to remember that, pardon the pun, we are mostly splitting hairs with most of the modern super-steels. Top of the pack ten years ago (ATS-34, 154CM) are, if properly ground, hardened and sharpened, still exceptionally good choices.

The Ritters are temporarily hard to get, due to a dealer change. If you look, you might find an M2 or M4 limited edition of the Ritter for sale. Both are terrific, as long as you don't require stainless.

Mini-Grips of any flavor are a little like Lays potato chips. It's hard to stop at one... ;)
 
Ahhhh, I see. That introduces the other big variable there, which is blade shape. I really like the Ritter blade shape, but YMMV. I like it enough that I might buy that over a "better" steel. . . .
... ;)
I was fortunate enough to get both the RSK Mk1 and the mini in CPM M4. Carbide rich with a high flat grind. Now I hear from someone ;) in another thread that Benchmade's M4 is soft at 60-62 :rolleyes: I agree that blade-shape definitely plays a major role.

Combining two thoughts on CPM M4 -- how does the Benchmade M4 @ 60-62 in the RSK bladeshape compare to the Spyderco M4 @ 64-65 Rc in the GBs bladeshape?
 
Soft is kinda relative. Some Bladesports winners run M4 at 61 Rc. For a small folder, that kind of chopping impact isn't seen, so running it harder for more wear resistance makes sense - but that is still a usable range for cutlery.
 
I would have to see some tests to believe that Benchmade is really running it that high. They have a history of over stating the hardness in their knives. Recall their "60-62" M2 knives averaged out in the 59RC range when tested. D2 same.

Seems like the M4 benchmades were pretty soft too.
 
I would have to see some tests to believe that Benchmade is really running it that high. They have a history of over stating the hardness in their knives. Recall their "60-62" M2 knives averaged out in the 59RC range when tested. D2 same.

Seems like the M4 benchmades were pretty soft too.


110% agreed
 
Well there is no other test results than what I have. Ankerson test are informal by his own words and IMHO to extent it compromises results. I raise question about his method and have no answers from him - who am I after all?

I am doing testing for a while - several years, not just few times - I tested 41 different blades, developed statistical sharpness measurement etc, etc, etc.

So it is not matter of my personal opinion, but formal test results. And unfortunately everybody may disagree and say that M390 better, but no one have test results which may support this. I may be wrong, but there is no solid evidence of that.

Thanks, Vassili.

Are your tests published or on video anywhere? This thread is confusing to the average user (read = "me") who finds almost all folding knife steels to be quite good for light to medium use.

I don't use my knife to cut 100's of cardboard boxes into slivers or draw them through yard after yard of drywall or used carpeting. There are inexpensive tools with replaceable blades for drywall and carpet cutting.

I don't sit at a table and cut 50 yds of hemp rope into tiny sections either. these aren't real world tests of useable sharpness IMHO.

I pull out my my folder to open a priority mail box (short cut through thin cardboard), whittle a toothpick in the orchard. I shave thin slices of wood like Ankerson does to get a fires started and have even batoned through small peices of wood for kindling. Anything more than that is probably out of the line of my use and can be done with an Ontario RAT-1 folder as well as a Benchmade 710, Spyderco Military and a whole slew of other offerings.

I would like to see exactly what the 41 blades and their steel, angle of bevels on the edges, the manufacturers, the actual tests, etc. you're referring to. :)
 
Are your tests published or on video anywhere? This thread is confusing to the average user (read = "me") who finds almost all folding knife steels to be quite good for light to medium use.

I don't use my knife to cut 100's of cardboard boxes into slivers or draw them through yard after yard of drywall or used carpeting. There are inexpensive tools with replaceable blades for drywall and carpet cutting.

I don't sit at a table and cut 50 yds of hemp rope into tiny sections either. these aren't real world tests of useable sharpness IMHO.

I pull out my my folder to open a priority mail box (short cut through thin cardboard), whittle a toothpick in the orchard. I shave thin slices of wood like Ankerson does to get a fires started and have even batoned through small peices of wood for kindling. Anything more than that is probably out of the line of my use and can be done with an Ontario RAT-1 folder as well as a Benchmade 710, Spyderco Military and a whole slew of other offerings.

I would like to see exactly what the 41 blades and their steel, angle of bevels on the edges, the manufacturers, the actual tests, etc. you're referring to. :)

I'm in to. However I do cut off strapping (Plastic), cardboard, thru tape, wire/zip ties, plastic bags, lots of packaging pretty much everyday. I unpack PCs, Servers, and other computer equipment daily. So a Mini-Grip for EDC is used 90% for that task. I am torn between Combo/Edge as well. I hate serration even partial. But they do tend to rip thru strapping and zip ties better then a plain edge. Almost all my blades are plain with the exception of my BM Barrage, which now never sees much time, too big for an EDC...it can pass for one but it isnt a good choice.
 
He's got'em on a web site if that counts :cool:


It just another persons opinion and proves nothing about anything.



Feeling a edge, cutting paper, cutting thread, are all poor judgments of a knifes sharpness and edge quality after a cutting test has been performed. You must look closely at a edge to truly see what has happened.


Some just use a knife and keep it sharp, other like myself look deeper into the edge to try and find what makes it tick. Its a true science of many things and very complex to the point where most simply don't care to learn it. For me its a hobby but I'm not a scientist so any "results" of my own personal testing are just something to better my understanding.

Anyone can post data and call it the final word but until someone is a actual scientist with a slue of lab equipment including a SEM to take pictures of the edges all this "data" is little more than opinion.

Too much value is put into one persons "test" and all the sudden it becomes "fact". No one asks their own questions anymore and takes the first video on youtube as the final word to their question. So what's the answer to S30V vs M390 you say? Buy it, use it, sharpen it, and decide for yourself. Its the only way.
 
So what's the answer to S30V vs M390 you say? Buy it, use it, sharpen it, and decide for yourself. Its the only way.

Good post knifenut1013. ;)
 
Well there is no other test results than what I have. Ankerson test are informal by his own words and IMHO to extent it compromises results. I raise question about his method and have no answers from him - who am I after all?

I am doing testing for a while - several years, not just few times - I tested 41 different blades, developed statistical sharpness measurement etc, etc, etc.

So it is not matter of my personal opinion, but formal test results. And unfortunately everybody may disagree and say that M390 better, but no one have test results which may support this. I may be wrong, but there is no solid evidence of that.

Thanks, Vassili.

Just reading up on various steels here and, I am not really understanding the negative groupthink attitude towards Nozh. Perhaps he comes across blunt but clearly english is not his first language and I highly doubt that the vast majority here including myself can speak two languages so I think he deserves some slack in this regard. I Haven't read all of his posts and do not know if he has been intentionally rude but frankly folks here seem quite ignorant towards him. He seems to be offering an opinion that, unlike the vast majority of us again, he has done extensive controlled tests of various steels. Maybe not scientific but certainly closer to that than anyone else here that I am aware of. I think its ignorant to write off whatever he says simply because it doesn't agree with what the industry may want us to believe via marketing or the opinions of more popular personalities here. There have been many many times in history that intelligent people who have put time and effort into something only to be criticized when expressing what they have learned, many of those people in history would later become legends for their brilliance. I am not saying this is the case here but I am saying that to dismiss anyone because they have results differing from popular opinion has been and is not the smartest way to go.
He has been open about his test methods for anyone who is interested and has made very logical arguments against others methods. He has constructive criticism while many simply do not. A "roll eyes" emoji is pretty weak criticism imo. If we are going to debate steels then why not use constructive arguments. A simple, "I don't agree." , is an unsupported opinion, and not at all constructive to the topic. If you disagree with his results then explain why you think his opinion(which is actually based on what seems to be fairly comprehensive testing) then explain what it is that he has done that gives you doubt.
As far as I know he is not connected to the industry and has know inside interests that could lead to a biased opinion. AM I missing something here because I really do not get this complete dismissive attitude towards this guy. Honestly? I feel like this turns into freaking high school sometimes. These conversations turn into a popularity contest with groupies hanging with their more popular friend. This is amateurish.
I know what I just wrote won't be popular but that is my point. Knife steel is a fairly straight forward topic and he has only offered dissenting opinion based on actual evidence while most here make an opinion based on impressions from use. If you are open minded and a critical thinking person, you must give far more weight to his tests than random observations because it is simply logical.
I know this is a forum and all about opinions but lets try to be above the high school level and make comments that informative. When it comes to straight forward topics such as knife steels and their performance I will always strive to be open minded and appreciate the opinion of someone who has done a lot of controlled testing than a dozen people who have never done this, no matter who it is.
To be clear, I am expressing my opinion on my observations from this thread and several other with this Vissilli guy. I am fairly new, and do not know the pecking order here. I am unaware if there have been legitimate reasons for this attitude against this fellow. I definitely don't want to cause a rift between myself and the guys here, we are all fans of knives, I just want to see more constructive debate as opposed to hype and popularity. Isn't this the whole point of this topic?
 
Please don't resurrect a five year old thread to lecture us about a former member who has been banned.

Just reading up on various steels here and, I am not really understanding the negative groupthink attitude towards Nozh. Perhaps he comes across blunt but clearly english is not his first language and I highly doubt that the vast majority here including myself can speak two languages so I think he deserves some slack in this regard. I Haven't read all of his posts and do not know if he has been intentionally rude but frankly folks here seem quite ignorant towards him. He seems to be offering an opinion that, unlike the vast majority of us again, he has done extensive controlled tests of various steels. Maybe not scientific but certainly closer to that than anyone else here that I am aware of. I think its ignorant to write off whatever he says simply because it doesn't agree with what the industry may want us to believe via marketing or the opinions of more popular personalities here. There have been many many times in history that intelligent people who have put time and effort into something only to be criticized when expressing what they have learned, many of those people in history would later become legends for their brilliance. I am not saying this is the case here but I am saying that to dismiss anyone because they have results differing from popular opinion has been and is not the smartest way to go.
He has been open about his test methods for anyone who is interested and has made very logical arguments against others methods. He has constructive criticism while many simply do not. A "roll eyes" emoji is pretty weak criticism imo. If we are going to debate steels then why not use constructive arguments. A simple, "I don't agree." , is an unsupported opinion, and not at all constructive to the topic. If you disagree with his results then explain why you think his opinion(which is actually based on what seems to be fairly comprehensive testing) then explain what it is that he has done that gives you doubt.
As far as I know he is not connected to the industry and has know inside interests that could lead to a biased opinion. AM I missing something here because I really do not get this complete dismissive attitude towards this guy. Honestly? I feel like this turns into freaking high school sometimes. These conversations turn into a popularity contest with groupies hanging with their more popular friend. This is amateurish.
I know what I just wrote won't be popular but that is my point. Knife steel is a fairly straight forward topic and he has only offered dissenting opinion based on actual evidence while most here make an opinion based on impressions from use. If you are open minded and a critical thinking person, you must give far more weight to his tests than random observations because it is simply logical.
I know this is a forum and all about opinions but lets try to be above the high school level and make comments that informative. When it comes to straight forward topics such as knife steels and their performance I will always strive to be open minded and appreciate the opinion of someone who has done a lot of controlled testing than a dozen people who have never done this, no matter who it is.
To be clear, I am expressing my opinion on my observations from this thread and several other with this Vissilli guy. I am fairly new, and do not know the pecking order here. I am unaware if there have been legitimate reasons for this attitude against this fellow. I definitely don't want to cause a rift between myself and the guys here, we are all fans of knives, I just want to see more constructive debate as opposed to hype and popularity. Isn't this the whole point of this topic?
 
]Please don't resurrect a five year old thread to lecture us about a former member who has been banned.


:thumbup::thumbup: Jon
 
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