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Creationish Vs Evolutionism? BE POLITE!

What do you believe? (private)

  • Biblical Creationism (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian Evolution (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Non Christian Creation (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Non Christian Evolution (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Non Christian Science (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian Science (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • inexplicable (creation cannot be explained through current science or religion))

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other. Please explain in your post! :)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
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But science still doesn't know all that there is to know about something as simple and common as steel. The metallurgists won't let you padlock their section of the library because they know that they still have a lot to add to it. And yet some people want to close the section of the library about the origins of life and of all diversity because they think they have it all figured out.

Nobody is saying to close the section of the library about steel (or the origins of life). They're saying, keep learning and testing so we can refine what we know, and understand it better. But don't burn it all down the first time you find something you cannot explain about it, assuming we have it wrong. The difference between evolution and intelligent design, is there are very specific things that could show evolution to be false. It's testable, and has been. That we have yet to find anything seriously inconsistent with the Theory, despite all our other advances in science, is telling. And the more we do learn, the more it appears to be supported (and again, don't conflate evolution with abiogenesis - they are different).

There is no such test for Intelligent design. You can always just say, oh, well clearly that's the way the creator wanted things to appear. Nothing would be inconsistent or falsify it. Rabbits in the Cretaceous period would be just fine. That we don't find things like that supports evolution.
 
"Evolution is a fact that science has proven".

This seems to be a popular term, but it still doesn't explain the origin of life, or how something began to exist from nothing.

Aristotle said it best; "Nothing is that which rocks dream about"

Before the big bang, which has also been scientifically proven, there was nothing.
No laws of physics, No laws of nature, no space, no time, no life supporting proteins.
Science can not answer how the universe and nature created itself from nothing. The only thing that makes sense to me is that something other than or outside of space, time, and nature could have created the universe and life.
I believe the answer is God, and I believe he sent His Son to save us.
 
The fossil record is wholly void of transitional life forms, which would be not just plentiful but everywhere in an evolving universe.

This is simply not true. Everything is a "transitional form", even you. Evidence of vestigial physicality and behavior are as close as the nearest mirror.

Claiming a lack of fossil evidence is facetious. While there are plenty of fossils that indicate transitions (the evolution of tetrapods is pretty clear cut), the dismissal of evolution leaves either the option that long extinct species and modern ones (hominids included) would have all lived side by side (and plenty of questions) or that there have repeatedly been mass-extinction and recreation of every species with minor or major changes (again, hominids included).
 
A better resource than I can be, the Talk Origins 29+ evidences for Macroevolution Page. (note - they use the term here to specifically argue those who try to make the distinction between micro and macro - these deal only with what is covered under most uses of the macro term).

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
There is entirely too much stuff on that webpage that is simply untrue, or partial truth that I don't have the time (or energy) to explain why it's wrong.

Consider this; there are two types basic types of organisms on this planet, those with one cell and those with multiple thousands of cells. If Darwinism were true we would expect to see 2, 4, 5, 6.... celled organisms, but we don't.

You will stick to your religion no matter what I say, and I will stick to my God no matter what you say, so this arguement is a waste of time and energy.

Good day to you brother.
 
"Evolution is a fact that science has proven".

This seems to be a popular term, but it still doesn't explain the origin of life, or how something began to exist from nothing.

Aristotle said it best; "Nothing is that which rocks dream about"

Before the big bang, which has also been scientifically proven, there was nothing.
No laws of physics, No laws of nature, no space, no time, no life supporting proteins.
Science can not answer how the universe and nature created itself from nothing. The only thing that makes sense to me is that something other than or outside of space, time, and nature could have created the universe and life.
I believe the answer is God, and I believe he sent His Son to save us.
Amen, Brother.
 
Consider this; there are two types basic types of organisms on this planet, those with one cell and those with multiple thousands of cells. If Darwinism were true we would expect to see 2, 4, 5, 6.... celled organisms, but we don't.

Your expectation is in error - it is communication/cooperation between cells that is important... but there are multicellular organisms that do meet your stated requirement. Many types of Algae, hydra, and other cellular colony based organisms like the man-o-war. These exist as one, two, three, or three billion cell organisms.

Also, from Science Magazine, Nature, and the book "Five Kingdoms" -

The intermediate stage between one-celled and multicelled life need not have been two-celled. The first requirement is for signals between cells, which is necessary if cells are to cooperate in division of labor to break down a food source. Many bacteria utilize a variety of different signals. The evolution of a signal for cooperative swarming has been observed in one bacterium (Velicer and Yu 2003).

The transition to multicellularity has been studied in experiments with Pseudomonas fluorescens, which showed that "transitions to higher orders of complexity are readily achievable" (Rainey and Rainey 2003, 72). Choanoflagellates, which are unicellular and colonial organisms related to multicelled animals, express several proteins similar to those used in cell interactions, showing that such proteins could arise in single-celled animals and be co-opted for multicellular development (King et al. 2003).

Desmidoideae is a class of conjugating green algae, phylum Gamophyta. Most desmids form pairs of cells whose cytoplasms are joined at an isthmus (Margulis and Schwartz 1982, 100). The bacterium Neisseria also tends to form two-celled arrangements. As noted above, this may not be relevant to the evolution of multicellularity.


King, Nicole, Christopher T. Hittinger and Sean B. Carroll. 2003. Evolution of key cell signaling and adhesion protein families predates animal origins. Science 301: 361-363.
Margulis, Lynn and Karlene V. Schwartz. 1982. Five Kingdoms San Francisco: W. H. Freeman.
Rainey, Paul B. and Katrina Rainey. 2003. Evolution of cooperation and conflict in experimental bacterial populations. Nature 425: 72-74.
Velicer, Gregory J. and Yuen-tsu N. Yu. 2003. Evolution of novel cooperative swarming in the bacterium Myxococcus xanthus. Nature 425: 75-78.


But as you say, neither of us is going to convince the other. Believe what you will. I'll stick with what is supported by evidence. Be well.
 
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I voted for Biblical creationism.

Of course my system of belief has changed over the decades. I was taught, in the public education system, that evolution was absolute fact. At one time I too believed that to be the case.

For me it delves down to two opposite systems of belief; neither is completely void of supporting evidence, but one (system of belief) demands that I willingly ignore both the blatantly obvious and that which is missing but should be there.

My change (in belief) began some 25 years ago when a friend (she is deeply religious) and I had a lengthy discussion on this very subject. I went into that discussion quite sure of my position and left it with far more questions than answers. As is my normal reaction to such things, I began to research the issue as much as I possibly could.

Among my first observations was that those espousing evolution tend to depend heavily upon very questionable presumptions in order to tidy up their theory. That didn't seem very scientific to me, especially since those questionable presumptions cannot be replicated and observed.

In fact, the more I researched the theory of evolution, the more I became convinced that it was nothing more than a religion of sorts - though it held absolutely no promise of salvation or redemption.

A major tenet of the theory of evolution is that life changes (oftentimes dramatically) to cope with outside influences. That certainly appears to be sensible and is observable to an extent. But a problem arises when it comes to dramatic changes or major alterations in life as we know it.

That problem is time.

The one constant is change - be it the weather, or food sources, or disasters. Our surroundings (environment) are constantly changing and those changes are frequently dramatic changes.

We don't see those rapid, dramatic, changes (in life-forms). It isn't observable in the fossil record and it isn't observable in life. But it should be.

What we do see is adaptation - within the limits of that life-form to adapt to the ever-changing surroundings/environment.

Evolutionists attempt to explain that away by claiming dramatic life-changing alterations (of a life form) need time.... lots and lots of time. That simply isn't a possibility when the environment changes rapidly (which it often does).

The fossil records show us extinctions and new, fully formed and fully functional life-forms. What it doesn't show is that which would have to be there if the theory of evolution were even halfway correct - thousands upon thousands of in-transition fossils for every one fully formed and functional fossil. Remember - change is the one constant, and if the theory of evolution were correct; dramatic change (in life-forms) would be a constant.

Those few fossils which mankind has classified as transitional life-forms are far more likely to be fully formed, functional, animals that just happened to go extinct. Science is riddled with examples of false assumptions. The fact that we humans think there might possibly be a connection of some sorts (based on our desire to connect the two) is little more than proof of our imaginations.

Irreducible complexity.

Even the most simple of life forms are so complex that we humans don't begin to understand how (or why) such complexity came to be.

A simple mousetrap is an example (one that is far easier to understand) - take away one part and the mousetrap fails to work. In other words - all the parts have to be there, and they all have to work correctly, for the device to work at all. The trap itself is irreducible - the sum of the parts is the whole.

As we know, the mousetrap didn't come to be by happenstance; it was designed (and built) with intelligence.

Now suppose you were suddenly confronted by outside forces that required you to build a working mousetrap - or die. You don't have a lot of time to build that mousetrap, and you cannot afford a trial and error method; it has to work correctly the very first time. Making matters worse: nobody in the entire world has ever seen (or made) a mousetrap.

Energy expended on dead ends is a dead end. Almost all mutations are either harmful or (at best) not helpful to the life-form.

A mousetrap is simple, yet irreducibly complex. Our senses are incredibly complex: irreducibly so, yet each one would have to develop all the parts (at the same time) through a series of mutations (that didn't harm the life-form) so as to give the life-form an advantage in the ever-changing environment. Waste energy on a dead-end and the experiment fails - the life-form is extinct.

Reproduction.

Build a better mousetrap and the ladies beat a path to your door (in theory anyway).

The problem with that theory is the fact that different is... well different to many life-forms. Unless that difference is a decided advantage, the different life-form is likely to be shunned by the lady life-forms.

The would-be father - by way of expending energy on his mutations - is now hobbled by the fact that he has less energy available to expend on things like finding food... or mates. And that's a best-case scenario.

But let's suppose our Romeo does, somehow, convince the ladies that he's a worthy suitor; now his mutations are passed onto his offspring. In the case of irreducible complexity, those offspring would have to have their own mutations (that not only didn't harm them, but also supplied the missing parts necessary for the mutations to be beneficial). Anything less and the experiment fails. The mutation is either meaningless, is bred out of the future populations, or it kills the hosts.

Science

Mathematics is science. And mathematics tell us that evolution - Darwin's version anyway - is a statistical impossibility. At least one statistician has likened the theory of evolution to a tornado ripping through a salvage yard and assembling (from the scrap) a fully functioning Boeing 747.

Not only is that a statistical impossibility - it can't happen, it won't ever happen.

If the theory of evolution were correct, we'd see it happening on a daily basis. There are (literally) trillions upon trillions of opportunities every second of every day - change is the constant. We'd see life-forms in transition constantly - in fact that would be the norm.

Instead we see adaptation within the limits of that life-form's ability to adapt. That's what we see in the fossil record too - adaptation, extinctions, and new, fully formed, fully functional life-forms. We don't see in transition life-forms at all.

I voted for Biblical Creationism.

Why?

I cannot subscribe to the theory of evolution: that belief system simply doesn't make sense to me and I find it to be easily disproved.

My support for Biblical Creationism is founded in my own experiences, observable surroundings, and the fact that, for me, it just makes the most sense.

If I've offended anyone, I apologize.

It is not my intent to offend, nor is it my intent to convince you that my beliefs are superior. I merely offer my thoughts as a reply to the request given by the OP and I have attempted to give a reason for those thoughts.
 
Your expectation is in error - it is communication/cooperation between cells that is important... but there are multicellular organisms that do meet your stated requirement. Many types of Algae, hydra, and other cellular colony based organisms like the man-o-war. These exist as one, two, three, or three billion cell organisms.

Also, from Science Magazine and the book "Five Kingdoms" -

The transition to multicellularity has been studied in experiments with Pseudomonas fluorescens, which showed that "transitions to higher orders of complexity are readily achievable" (Rainey and Rainey 2003, 72). Choanoflagellates, which are unicellular and colonial organisms related to multicelled animals, express several proteins similar to those used in cell interactions, showing that such proteins could arise in single-celled animals and be co-opted for multicellular development (King et al. 2003).

Desmidoideae is a class of conjugating green algae, phylum Gamophyta. Most desmids form pairs of cells whose cytoplasms are joined at an isthmus (Margulis and Schwartz 1982, 100). The bacterium Neisseria also tends to form two-celled arrangements. As noted above, this may not be relevant to the evolution of multicellularity.


King, Nicole, Christopher T. Hittinger and Sean B. Carroll. 2003. Evolution of key cell signaling and adhesion protein families predates animal origins. Science 301: 361-363.
Margulis, Lynn and Karlene V. Schwartz. 1982. Five Kingdoms San Francisco: W. H. Freeman.


But as you say, neither of us is going to convince the other. Believe what you will. I'll stick with what is supported by evidence. Be well.
I know I said I wouldn't argue anymore, but I can't let that go unreplied to. Yes, you see 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... cell communities but they are all seperate entities. They are simply living together. Calling those communities a single organism is like calling a neighbourhood of people, one person. I hope God blesses you abundantly brother, even though you do not recognize him.
 
I personally believe in creationism, but I do not totally discount evolution either. The reason for my belief in creationism is that everything in nature" works" too perfect to be anything other than "created". Whether be it by God or any other Supreme Being is in my opinion another topic. As far as evolution is concerned, I'm certain that species can evolve within a species to adapt to their environment. However, I DO NOT believe that a species can physically change from an ape to a human. It is a contradiction to say that apes evolved to humans when there are still apes alive. In the name of science, technically apes should be extinct if there are humans. The second reason that I can't believe evolution is the whole survival of the fittest thing. This principal applies to animals only, because there is no human element or emotion involved. Humans have compassion for others, whereas animals let the weakest die off because their goal is to produce offspring and carry on their species. Creationism just makes the most sense to me, but I can understand why others believe in evolution.
 
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I know I said I wouldn't argue anymore, but I can't let that go unreplied to. Yes, you see 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... cell communities but they are all seperate entities. They are simply living together. Calling those communities a single organism is like calling a neighbourhood of people, one person. I hope God blesses you abundantly brother, even though you do not recognize him.

I just want to offer a clarification for this as well - It's more akin to a single apartment building, where all the required labor to keep the building going, is divided up by different people within it. Some process food, some find it, some protect the community, or repair the walls. After a while, that building is simple named as a new animal. You are just such a community, you rely on bacterial flora in your stomach, your organs are simply cells that communicate with one another and do a certain task, cells that evolved from simpler ones. A community. Deciding some types of communities are a new animal, while others are not, is simply semantics - everything multicelled - whether two algae working together, or the billions of cells that work together and are called a human, is just a community (from a cellular standpoint - philosophical identity is another issue)

Anyway. I appreciate your well wishes, and offer them in return.
 
A fun monkey wrench to throw into the whole discussion is the topic of miracles... No matter how true evolution is proven to be, God or something like him is the only feasible explanation for some of the stuff Christianity has seen happen. According to the laws of nature, you can't touch the stump where a mans arm once was and have it grow back before your eyes. And yet, one of my pastors had that happen to him on a mission trip to India last week.

Evolution and science also can't explain the often dramatic changes in behavior and personality that religion has caused over the centuries. People that can only be described as evil should not be able to make a complete life change and start loving people spontaneously, and yet that happens too.
 
I voted for Biblical creationism.

Of course my system of belief has changed over the decades. I was taught, in the public education system, that evolution was absolute fact. At one time I too believed that to be the case.

For me it delves down to two opposite systems of belief; neither is completely void of supporting evidence, but one (system of belief) demands that I willingly ignore both the blatantly obvious and that which is missing but should be there.

My change (in belief) began some 25 years ago when a friend (she is deeply religious) and I had a lengthy discussion on this very subject. I went into that discussion quite sure of my position and left it with far more questions than answers. As is my normal reaction to such things, I began to research the issue as much as I possibly could.

Among my first observations was that those espousing evolution tend to depend heavily upon very questionable presumptions in order to tidy up their theory. That didn't seem very scientific to me, especially since those questionable presumptions cannot be replicated and observed.

In fact, the more I researched the theory of evolution, the more I became convinced that it was nothing more than a religion of sorts - though it held absolutely no promise of salvation or redemption.

A major tenet of the theory of evolution is that life changes (oftentimes dramatically) to cope with outside influences. That certainly appears to be sensible and is observable to an extent. But a problem arises when it comes to dramatic changes or major alterations in life as we know it.

That problem is time.

The one constant is change - be it the weather, or food sources, or disasters. Our surroundings (environment) are constantly changing and those changes are frequently dramatic changes.

We don't see those rapid, dramatic, changes (in life-forms). It isn't observable in the fossil record and it isn't observable in life. But it should be.

What we do see is adaptation - within the limits of that life-form to adapt to the ever-changing surroundings/environment.

Evolutionists attempt to explain that away by claiming dramatic life-changing alterations (of a life form) need time.... lots and lots of time. That simply isn't a possibility when the environment changes rapidly (which it often does).

The fossil records show us extinctions and new, fully formed and fully functional life-forms. What it doesn't show is that which would have to be there if the theory of evolution were even halfway correct - thousands upon thousands of in-transition fossils for every one fully formed and functional fossil. Remember - change is the one constant, and if the theory of evolution were correct; dramatic change (in life-forms) would be a constant.

Those few fossils which mankind has classified as transitional life-forms are far more likely to be fully formed, functional, animals that just happened to go extinct. Science is riddled with examples of false assumptions. The fact that we humans think there might possibly be a connection of some sorts (based on our desire to connect the two) is little more than proof of our imaginations.

Irreducible complexity.

Even the most simple of life forms are so complex that we humans don't begin to understand how (or why) such complexity came to be.

A simple mousetrap is an example (one that is far easier to understand) - take away one part and the mousetrap fails to work. In other words - all the parts have to be there, and they all have to work correctly, for the device to work at all. The trap itself is irreducible - the sum of the parts is the whole.

As we know, the mousetrap didn't come to be by happenstance; it was designed (and built) with intelligence.

Now suppose you were suddenly confronted by outside forces that required you to build a working mousetrap - or die. You don't have a lot of time to build that mousetrap, and you cannot afford a trial and error method; it has to work correctly the very first time. Making matters worse: nobody in the entire world has ever seen (or made) a mousetrap.

Energy expended on dead ends is a dead end. Almost all mutations are either harmful or (at best) not helpful to the life-form.

A mousetrap is simple, yet irreducibly complex. Our senses are incredibly complex: irreducibly so, yet each one would have to develop all the parts (at the same time) through a series of mutations (that didn't harm the life-form) so as to give the life-form an advantage in the ever-changing environment. Waste energy on a dead-end and the experiment fails - the life-form is extinct.

Reproduction.

Build a better mousetrap and the ladies beat a path to your door (in theory anyway).

The problem with that theory is the fact that different is... well different to many life-forms. Unless that difference is a decided advantage, the different life-form is likely to be shunned by the lady life-forms.

The would-be father - by way of expending energy on his mutations - is now hobbled by the fact that he has less energy available to expend on things like finding food... or mates. And that's a best-case scenario.

But let's suppose our Romeo does, somehow, convince the ladies that he's a worthy suitor; now his mutations are passed onto his offspring. In the case of irreducible complexity, those offspring would have to have their own mutations (that not only didn't harm them, but also supplied the missing parts necessary for the mutations to be beneficial). Anything less and the experiment fails. The mutation is either meaningless, is bred out of the future populations, or it kills the hosts.

Science

Mathematics is science. And mathematics tell us that evolution - Darwin's version anyway - is a statistical impossibility. At least one statistician has likened the theory of evolution to a tornado ripping through a salvage yard and assembling (from the scrap) a fully functioning Boeing 747.

Not only is that a statistical impossibility - it can't happen, it won't ever happen.

If the theory of evolution were correct, we'd see it happening on a daily basis. There are (literally) trillions upon trillions of opportunities every second of every day - change is the constant. We'd see life-forms in transition constantly - in fact that would be the norm.

Instead we see adaptation within the limits of that life-form's ability to adapt. That's what we see in the fossil record too - adaptation, extinctions, and new, fully formed, fully functional life-forms. We don't see in transition life-forms at all.

I voted for Biblical Creationism.

Why?

I cannot subscribe to the theory of evolution: that belief system simply doesn't make sense to me and I find it to be easily disproved.

My support for Biblical Creationism is founded in my own experiences, observable surroundings, and the fact that, for me, it just makes the most sense.

If I've offended anyone, I apologize.

It is not my intent to offend, nor is it my intent to convince you that my beliefs are superior. I merely offer my thoughts as a reply to the request given by the OP and I have attempted to give a reason for those thoughts.

If it's easily disproven then disprove it. What you are making is an argument from personal incredulity. And then you bring up probability, but considering the number of stars in the universe, the number of potentially habitable plabets orbiting those stars and the vast length of time involved the probability isn't a simple factor. A 1 in 1 billion happenstance become likely if there are 10 billion opportunities for it.
 
I'd be willing to concede that the internet has proven that many people have not evolved.
I doubt God wishes to take credit for them either though. ;)
 
A fun monkey wrench to throw into the whole discussion is the topic of miracles... No matter how true evolution is proven to be, God or something like him is the only feasible explanation for some of the stuff Christianity has seen happen. According to the laws of nature, you can't touch the stump where a mans arm once was and have it grow back before your eyes. And yet, one of my pastors had that happen to him on a mission trip to India last week.

That's the first time I've heard of a faith healing that involved regrowing an amputated limb. Some objective documentation would be great! Certainly would cause many to ask some good questions about what we know about the world. Unfortunately, reliable documentation for miracles seems to be lacking.
 
The documentary Religulous pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. While Bill Maher can be a bit much in his presentation/dramatics there are some points brought up in that movie that are very hard to ignore.
Yeah, that's a pretty well done movie. Even if you don't agree with the man's politics (which I don't) you can't really argue with a lot of what he says about religion.
 
... But I will never believe anyone will burn for internity after they die.

I think a better description is "eternal separation" If a person believes in the God of the bible, the thought of eternal separation is probably more frightening than pitch forks and hot lava. Imagine standing in front of the creator of the universe, realizing how everything works, the profound love for us and then separated from that forever. Off topic I know but wanted to address what many view as hell.

As far as the the thread topic goes, I believe it takes a heck of a lot more faith to believe in evolution than it does a creator but since my mind is finite I choose not to short circuit it with such. I believe our existence is eternal and having an earthly body is just a short part of it.
 
I am an atheist. I tried to understand religion when I was younger, but at 51 years old, I still don't believe, and have not seen anything that would make me change my views...

The idea that one person created all things as we know them, and watches over billions of people, is beyond far fetched IMHO. I have friends that are religious and they try to convince me otherwise, by telling me about what is written in the Bible. I personally put as much stock in the bible, as I do reading things on the internet.

I think religion gives people a sense of security because they fear death. I live my life the way I think I should, but it is because I was raised with morals and taught the difference between right and wrong behavior...
I don't need to read a book, or go to church every week, too know the difference.

The idea that "God" is an all knowing, all caring individual, is rediculous. There are children's hospitals all over the world, that are filled with kids suffering from horrific, terminal diseases. They are subjected to incredible suffering because of these diseases, and often have their lives cut short at a very early age.
There is absolutely no way, any caring person would ever subject innocent kids to live with pain and suffering. There is no compassion at all when it comes to this subject. Actually just the opposite.
I know, the usual response is, " It is all part of Gods plan ".... Really ? I don't understand how any rational person can justify, and accept this.
In my mind, this makes the people that are believers, just as cold and uncaring.

I'm not saying my way of thinking is correct, but there is no proof that I am wrong either.
 
. According to the laws of nature, you can't touch the stump where a mans arm once was and have it grow back before your eyes. And yet, one of my pastors had that happen to him on a mission trip to India last week.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Where's the proof?
 
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