Crimpit LEO only ?

I'm pretty sure Bram has his good reasons. I agree with George, Bram is one of the nicest instructors around. His main intentions is to help others to save themselves. He is usually around forums to answer questions but since he is with family, we should just cool off and wait for his response. Best wishes to your family.
 
AlienMind, et al.,

LEO's (professional security included) and civilians have different goals when utilizing force. LEO's initiate force in the lawful execution of their duties as well as have to be prepared to defend themselves. A civilian uses force to prevent the continuation of an assault and/or to escape from a violent situation. Arrest and control applications are low on the priority list for self defense for both categories of people. When discussing the tools for law enforcement and/or self defense, we must take into account that comparing the groups is largely apples vs. oranges.

Before the CRMIPT was available, several officers (as well as civilians) used the drone successfully to defend against criminals assaults or control violent subjects. Due to the litigious nature of police work (or any use of force in a professional capacity), it was quite clear that bringing a "training tool" into an operational environment may have caused problems in court even if all else was perfectly justified. The CRMIPT also allows usage in LEO environments that may prohibit the carrying of knives (ie. - Corrections). I personally carry a CRMIPT on duty and the live blade off duty. I have one colleague that also has a CRIMPT for on duty use. My non-LEO students carry the drone or live blade. Probably a 60/40 split in favor of the drone because it can pull double duty for them.

The most "advanced" Gunting is the live blade and is available to ALL. It's not as if Spyderco/Bram have restricted the most effective tool to only LEO's. Just filling a niche that was missing. Progressive departments would be wise to implement edged weapon policies as discussed in the recent ASLET Journal, allowing latitude for a live blade, or what is essentially an advanced folding pocket stick, the CRIMPT.


If I was a LEO type, I would train with a good Arnis practitioner and opt for an ASP Air Weight.
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OK, this almost had me spit out my coffee. ;) The ASP airweights are not that great. I'd take a drone/CRIMPT over one of them anyday for duty carry if allowed to ditch my steel ASP.

From your comments it's pretty clear that you don't know Bram, do you? :D
 
I looked on all the sites and haven't seen this knife that is causing this mess. ANy chance posting a pic side by side or at a least a link. I have seen the gunting but not the other.


Paul
 
I just talked with Bram about the CRMIPT and why it is LEO only. His explanation was very simple. When he first had Sal make the CRMIPT, several police agencies were going to buy the tool to use. In order for that to happen, it had to LEO only. That was their policy. Because of one thing or another, those conditions have now changed. So all of us trying to say this or that, this is the real reason. On that note, Bram says that he will offer the knife exclusively on his site at www.cssdsc.com for any LEO's, military, martial artist or security type personnel. This too was made to be used for defensive purposes . The CRMIPT will sell for $129 plus shipping. Look for it to be up on cssdsc.com by the end of the week. For more info, or to pre-order, contact me at 1-800-340-9664 or videokick@yahoo.com . I hope this will make some of you happy. Some will go back and say that Bram is doing this for this or that, you guys I could care less about. You Guntaholics, - thanks for your support and you know who you are.
George;)
 
George,
Thanks for the answer. This was the simple answer I was seeking for my simple question:)
 
Thanks, George! Many of us speculated, and someone, unfortunately, was too quick to jump to a conclusion. Let us not cast stones, though; I stuck my foot in my mouth a few times as a newbie, and will probably do it again from time to time.
 
Thanks George for the explanation. I don't know Bram, but I can only conclude he is a well-meaning and accomplished individual, having this many people/posts standing up for him. I am sure his work has been important in saving lives.

My point is the term "LEO" meaning "Law Enforcement Only" creates two classes of citizens, the LE and the non-LE. The LE is free to buy these items, even for personal use; where the non-LE is NOT free to do so. With each passing year the number of things that are restricted to non-LEs increase. Most of the time it seems to be a marketing strategy. From your post it seems that several police agencies are playing the LEO card. Usually when a crime is committed there is no LE around and the non-LE should have access to whatever means is reasonable for self-defense. I am not saying we all need class III weapons in our back pocket, but the non-LE should be allowed to make choices. Baring class II and III weapons, I think there should be no difference between what LEs and Non-LEs can purchase. A lot of LEO stuff is just manufacture/retailer imposed. I am glad that Bram will not discriminate again the non-LE.

Thanks


Here's looking at you Pachucko, stay cool!
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Originally posted by AlienMind
I don't know Bram, but I can only conclude he is a well-meaning and accomplished individual, having this many people/posts standing up for him. I am sure his work has been important in saving lives.

My point is the term "LEO" meaning "Law Enforcement Only"...
Click to expand...

Ya man...Bram is a really cool guy. He is very knowledgable, and at the same time, he is very effective at transfering his knowledge to all he teaches, A skill which few have mastered as well as he has.

As for the meaning of LEO... I always thought it ment "Law Enforcement Officer". Please correct me if I am wrong.

~BoLo~
 
Yes, Bolo, in "forumese," LEO is generally understood to mean Law Enforcement Officer. In other contexts, it may have other meanings.
 
I am sorry, but I was always using the acronym “LEO” as “Law Enforcement Only,” especially when I stated it was a **bad word** in the gun community. The stamping of “Law Enforcement Only,” pre-dates the acronym and many people read it as such when it pertains to a weapon (denoting ownership exclusion).

Today you find the word LEO means “Law Enforcement Officer” without any other context or association, except when it comes to weapons. For weapons context is really “Law Enforcement Only” (which was where my tunnel vision was stuck).

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Thanks for clearing things up guys.

AlienMind,
dont be so hard on yourself! we're all human, and we all, especially me, screw up from time to time.
Im pretty sure someone has mentioned this already, but I'll say it again... if you really wanna figure out how the G works, take one of Bram's seminar, or get the videos, to get a better understanding of why we back up Bram and the Gunting system.

Be Strong.
~BoLo~
 
Thank you all for the time to deal with my family emegency..
and Gadi's untimely death...
tiny aka Mr Steve..good response..
Thanks G force ( Kenpoman) for stating the way..

One cannot mix up training tools with working tools..It's a very bad situation within the LEO world..That includes agencies and Security stuff..
It can lead to litagation and problems in real world issues and injury and litigation within the training world..for what's safe to train with becomes a cloudy issue..
Some agencies want restriction on a tool..to make it "for them"..
Administrations like to know the tool is designed with the good guys in mind..
The average citizen can use a training DRONE and never miss a CRMIPT.

The current run of CRMIPTS was for a Police Department that is stuck in administrative quagmire over writing a policy to make it a requirement to carry a CRMIPT by the officers on staff.

Since I had to pay to have these made up..as soon as the run is here..I'll do a sell it off..
I have no need to personaly own more CRMIPTs......
Here's your chance to own a piece of GUNTING madness..
The first run of CRMIPTs..
Next generations will be more LEO oriented with seat belt cutters etc..

Saving lives is paramount..
Make money? If I knew in advance how much time, money and my life this would consume I'd probably chosen something else to do..

I pay my own way..


be safe..

Bram
 
Welcome back Bram.

Not to kick a dead horse, but it is possible and not even difficult for a "civilian" to obtain a CRMIPT. I had the opportunity and almost did so because I like the whole G system (for the most part). However, unexpected expenses came up. If it were the best tool I could have, I would have found a way to get it anyway. However, the G has the CRMIPT features and a live blade. I have done a couple "security" things a few times but nothing serious security, only working the door where I work and has never had any problems. So, I really did not need the CRMIPT since it would be a personal carry type thing. Cool to have, yes. But I don't think it gives a civilian any benefit over a G.
 
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