Critiquing~Is there really a problem?

Kevin Jones

Kevin Jones

Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
13,363
I must not spend enough time on this forum to see the problem we are addressing here.

Other than the occasional visit form a member of the "anti-customs" or the "a knife is no good unless used for cutting" crowed dropping by to deliberately start conflict, do we really have a problem here? :confused:

At times STeven could probably be a little more tactful in his delivery of critiques, however I would think makers should know by now he has a very direct and no-nonsense style of communicating in these matters which does not reflect the kind and generous person he is.

I don't see members having brutal verbal battles here or getting baned for such. I can't even remember a moderator having to step in? Have I just been missing these encounters.

I find Coop's, Paul's and Buddy's position on the "kumbaya compliments vs. unvarnished opinions" issue interesting as I don't think their photos or sheathwork has ever been critiqued here in less than a courteous and constructive manner. Actually, I don't think I have heard anything negative even though each of their work is showcased here on a regular basis. In fact their work gets much deserved praise. :thumbup:

I believe having knifemakers, photographers, engravers and sheathmakers posting their work and graciously accepting courteous response (both positive and negative) for the benefit of all is much what successful forums are about.

IMO, if there's any hostility problem here it's that some of us (us; as in I'm definitely included :o) have a problem accepting that we have very strong views and opinions and don't just agree to dis-agree and move on when challenged.
Instead, we seem to have this drastic need to "get the last word in" creating these ridiculous battles that go on post after post sometimes for days. :grumpy:
I'm working on this, seems others are too. :thumbup:

Wouldn't it be interesting if we could do an experiment here in that for one month everyone would openly critique each knife, photo, sheath presented in a honest, productive, courteous manner then for one month everyone would either not post or response with our normal "wonderful, best, beautiful, you the man, outstanding" way and then have this discussion again?

Please critique the above and offer courteous positive and/or negative feedback.

Thanks to Tai posting the links, we have been exposed to the acceptable and correct ways to critique. So let's practice. ;) :)
 
This is why I was asking for examples when people made generalizations about the negativity of the forums. All the threads and posts are right here. If there exists a pervasive climate of hostility and negativity toward makers, examples should be abundant, shouldn't they?

This isn't to say that all is perfect - far from it - but either I am completely mis-perceiving what is going on here, or the forum critics are holding up the exceptions as indicative of the rul.

As for the experiment - just be sure to let me know when we are doing the "high-five" month and I will take a break for that period. Forums where people do nothing but heap praise exist in abundance - those that want nothing more are not lacking for choice. I enjoy the discussion that takes place here. Content defined by multiple two-word reponses where the bulk of the post is rendered in smilies: "You rock! :eek::thumbdn::D:D" holds little appeal for me.

Roger
 
There are times, Kevin, when I FEEL that a knife posted is made and finished
to a shape and design that appeals to me. But on the other hand, as my interest
lies in a different discipline of custom knives, I hold back and say nothing.

The same happens when I do not like what I see. BUT, here, I do not feel
competent and knowledgeable enough to post an opinion....

So I feel a little on the outside and just sit back and LEARN from what
others have to say, and some times really enjoy it.......

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong with critiquing, one just has to
know enough to do this and do it with a pure heart.

All the best,
David
 
ddd said:
There are times, Kevin, when I FEEL that a knife posted is made and finished
to a shape and design that appeals to me. But on the other hand, as my interest
lies in a different discipline of custom knives, I hold back and say nothing.

The same happens when I do not like what I see. BUT, here, I do not feel
competent and knowledgeable enough to post an opinion....

So I feel a little on the outside and just sit back and LEARN from what
others have to say, and some times really enjoy it.......

All the best,
David
Click to expand...
I believe you are much more competent and knowledgeable than you let on. Your choice of makers and knives showcased in your books demonstrate this.

I also believe that anyone is entitled to present their opinion no matter the degree of knowledge as long as it's presented in a courteous manner and they are willing to accept feedback graciously and with an open mind. This will help them gain knowledge. Both collectors and makers benefit as long as both communicate in the proper way.
 
Remember the thread here several months ago that dealt with "deal Breakers"? You guys sometimes forget that not all makers are top notch yet and after reading that one will not even concider posting their work here now. I believe my only post on that thread was "I'm afraid to make another knife now" and the response was something like "make knives but just do it right". Now the only knives posted here are nearly perfect from the best known makers. Even poor photos are pointed out here. You guys are a tough bunch to please.
Just my observation from frequenting this forum.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Even poor photos are pointed out here.

I plead GUILTY on one count, your Honor.

You guys are a tough bunch to please.

That is the way the art/craft is advanced. Which is great news!
Click to expand...

On another thread, Nick Wheeler, JS related his conversation with Greg Neely, MS when Nick was requesting an honest critique of his knives. I found it really revealing about the great character of both men. It is worth reflecting upon, imho.

P
 
Bruce Bump said:
Remember the thread here several months ago that dealt with "deal Breakers"? You guys sometimes forget that not all makers are top notch yet and after reading that one will not even concider posting their work here now. I believe my only post on that thread was "I'm afraid to make another knife now" and the response was something like "make knives but just do it right". Now the only knives posted here are nearly perfect from the best known makers. Even poor photos are pointed out here. You guys are a tough bunch to please.
Just my observation from frequenting this forum.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bruce. This is kind of where I intended to go with this thread. Perhaps examine some examples.

I remember that thread. I for one will go back over it and comment. I'm always thrilled to see new makers post here, so don't want to run them off or intimidate them so as they are afraid to post their knives.

As far as photos go, I hope new makers realize how important good photos are in promoting their knives. It's hard enough to make a good knife without presenting it in a photo that depicts it less that it actually is.

The other night Kyle Royer posted a beautiful hunter on which I offered a suggestion and I believe and hope he accepted it in the spirit of which I meant it.
 
Could you maybe link it for us when you find it Kevin? Trying to look at it from Bruce's perspective would be worthwhile indeed.

Roger
 
It seems that everyone here is way more educated than us so its difficult to put up any kind of argument also. You guys are all accomplished in life and happy but we are just happy to make a knife with no "gaposis". It seems that this particular forum has such high standards that it intimidates most makers. Me included.
 
Bruce Bump said:
It seems that everyone here is way more educated than us so its difficult to put up any kind of argument also. You guys are all accomplished in life and happy but we are just happy to make a knife with no "gaposis". It seems that this particular forum has such high standards that it intimidates most makers. Me included.
Click to expand...

If you truly feel intimidated here, then I do see a problem. :confused:
 
Bruce you are at the place we all want to be. If you wont post hear the rest of us don't stand a chance.
 
Kevin Jones said:
If you truly feel intimidated here, then I do see a problem. :confused:
Click to expand...

Yes I think there is a problem. In my case its probally not my work, I feel it is good enough, but the problem is most makers cant just walk in this group and feel at ease.
Its intimidating to get a hundred "views" and only three or four "replys" so not posting is also a critique.
 
Bruce - you've got more posts than me and I feel like I live here! :eek: You must find something worthwhile. I take it the custom knife forum in particular (as opposed to the maker forums) is the subject of your commentary? I think you're a good guy and do superb work. If you have been made to feel unwelcome, that IS a concern to me and I'm sure, to others. I'll be back this evening and hopefully look over some examples and comment further.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Could you maybe link it for us when you find it Kevin? Trying to look at it from Bruce's perspective would be worthwhile indeed.

Roger
Click to expand...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453628

The above is the thread Bruce refers to. I found Erik's post particularly interesting as it directly follows Bruce's post.

Interesting, yet not surprised as Erik is one of the most positive thinking individuals I have had the pleasure to meet.
If he doesn't become one of the great knifemakers, it will not be because his attitude is not right.

Other new makers could do worst than following his example.

Erik Fritz said:
This is a great thread!!!!!! as a relatively new maker with a little over two years experience this has been very interesting. at Reno i got the first chance i have had to talk to collectors outside of the few that have bought my knives. I think that as knifemakers this is something we need to do more often. I have a chance quite often to goto other makers shops and get there ideas as to what i can do to improve my knife. one thing that i have noticed is that when i approach a maker he might see something in my knife that he would change that is what he would do to his knives. if that makes sense. at Reno i got a chance to talk to Steven and he gave me a whole new perspective on what to look for when i am finishing a knife. the other thing i see is that as a maker there is no way i am going to be able to make a knife that appeals to every collector. any way thank you for this thread it is something that i think all new makers need to hear.
Click to expand...

************************
 
I've never felt unwelcome here. The only time I've felt intimidated was when I was first posting in this subforum, and wasn't as confident in my work.

Remember, this is the "Custom & Handmade Knives" forum, not the "Custom & Handmade Knife Collectors" forum. Makers are just as welcome here as collectors.

I know it's hard sometimes for makers to accept criticism, because we put so much of ourselves into each knife, it's real easy to take things personally. We just need to grow thicker skin, and learn to "eat the meat and spit out the bones". Take what's helpful, and ignore what's not.

If someone is trying to be a jerk, and not offering anything constructive, then we all need to let them know that they are not welcome here.
 
Great thread.

I was thinking the same thing Kevin. I didn't realize that so many people thought of BF as a negative, ugly place! :confused:

Here's my take on the ---posting here thing---...

If you are just starting out at making knives and make something out of an old lawn-mower blade and oak slabs you found in an old pallet, then you are showing the desire to learn and get better. Are you going to knock the socks off of guys that are very familiar with spending over a grand on a knife? Probably not!

So what do you do? Show it to makers and get their thoughts and help!!!!!!

Make another one... and another...lurk here on the forums and see what people like and if it's anything you are interested in building. Even if it's not, and you want to go in a totally different direction like Tai... then learn how to do it, but do it well.

Get your teeth cut in a bit and then start showing collectors what you can do...


Be ready to accept that there's always room to grow and improve.

You can never make everyone happy. I have plenty of knives under my belt that I liked... but chances are the only other person that liked them was the one guy that bought 'em. Looking back on them, I see things that should have been different. I can't change them now, I can just try to do better on the next one. That's what I call growth.

You're either growing and improving OR staying the same OR getting worse.


New makers... Which do you want to do?


And just to be clear... I consider myself a new maker. There is so much for me to learn that it makes my head spin. BUT!!! I have no tolerance for letting that get me down or intimidate me. Nor do I allow the fine folks here to intimidate me. You guys are my friends and my patrons and your positive support makes me shine while your constructive criticism helps me grow.

I will continue to post and take the good and the bad for what it's worth. And just in case you're wondering... that's SEVERAL thousand dollars :D

My hydraulic forging press, KMG grinder, and new Jet metal band-saw, etc. were paid for by BF members. :thumbup: There's some food for thought eh?!!! :D


Edited to add that Phillip said it extremely well with many less words than I did! :)
 
What I’ve seen a lot are “value judgments” from collectors based solely on the tastes of the collector,… rather than going to a critical logical analysis of the features of the knife itself and why they feel the way they do about any particular aspect of the knife. When questioned on this it usually goes something like,… “I’ve been collecting knives for 50 years, spend oodles and oodles of money on them, and have this, that and that big name makers in my collection.” In way it implies that if a maker wants to sell knives and be successful they must agree with the collector making the statement.

It’s hard for me to take these kinds of critiques seriously…
 
Bruce Bump said:
Yes I think there is a problem. In my case its probally not my work, I feel it is good enough, but the problem is most makers cant just walk in this group and feel at ease.
Its intimidating to get a hundred "views" and only three or four "replys" so not posting is also a critique.
Click to expand...

Bruce, I will agree with you, however lack of replies is not always a critique and it does not always apply just to collector's lack of replies as it brings to mind a recent thread introducing my new Fisk Bandolero Bowie.

That thread received 48 replies (all extremely positive), however out of the 48only 2 makers, Don Hanson and Mark Terrell replied though many makers viewed it. I found that quite odd. :confused:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top