Critiquing~Is there really a problem?

No problem for me posting I suck and I know it and most people don't have a problem pointing it out.:D seriously though if you are a maker and want to improve how do you know what you are doing wrong if now one tells you? it is great to make what you want in the style you want but...........if it don't sell what is the reason? STeven was nice enough(nice might not be the right word:grumpy:) to point out to me at Reno what HE did not like about a particular bowie that i had made that he did not like. That being said the knife did sell. Now it did not sell to STeven and i have not sold him a knife yet............. does that make that particular knife now good or just not his cup of tea. I say it wasn't what he wanted but he is a very discriminateing maker and he knows what he wants. Same thing with Kevin they have a definite idea of what they like. Bruce Bump has been nice enough to critique several blades for me as well as numerous other makers. I feel that between the makers and the collectors critiques is the only way i am going to improve as a maker. So no i donot feel that there is a problem like was said earlier get thicker skin and improve on what we as makers need to improve upon.
 
Erik Fritz said:
STeven was nice enough(nice might not be the right word:grumpy:) to point out to me at Reno what HE did not like about a particular bowie that i had made that he did not like. That being said the knife did sell. Now it did not sell to STeven and i have not sold him a knife yet............. does that make that particular knife now good or just not his cup of tea.
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1. You directly asked, Erik, othewise I wouldn't have said anything at all.

2. I like your work, it is coming along nicely, and maybe, someday, I will buy a piece or two...but right now, the pieces that I have seen are for someone else...never implied OR said that your work was not good enough to sell, and glad you did!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
1. You directly asked, Erik, othewise I wouldn't have said anything at all.

2. I like your work, it is coming along nicely, and maybe, someday, I will buy a piece or two...but right now, the pieces that I have seen are for someone else...never implied OR said that your work was not good enough to sell, and glad you did!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Never thought you didn't think it was good enough STeven, i guess i was useing you as an example of how critiqueing can push a maker to do better. What you did for me was because, like you said i directly asked. When i have guys like Larry Fuegen and Tim Hancock telling me that you and Kevin are two collectors that know what you are looking i at I am going to seek you guys out and get your input on my knives. I am constantly striveing to improve what i am doing within my limits. For example i am working on a "cowboy bowie" right now that has a lobed guard african blackwood handle with spacer and but cap which has several things i have never done mainly the lobed guard and a thru tang. This little project is pushing me to the limits of what i have learned so far in my career and i like to think that this forum has been a big part of my learning as well as provideing the drive to make me do better all the time.
 
I have to be honest and say I've not read every post so I may be speaking a bit out of turn. In fact I havn't been on in a while and you all have been busy.

However, from what I have seen I think some makers are a bit too thin skinned. I guess I may be a little less sensitive to criticism because of the fact that I was a kid growing up in this, around not so gentle men and my knives were consistently torn apart. When I was a kid I really let some of these comments get to me. My parents were instrumental in explaining that these guys were just trying to help, at times in their harsh way. But they encouraged me to listen to them but still be my own person.

Over the years I began to see that the vast majority of the these comments had actually improved my work because I listened to every one and worked to prove them wrong or just get better.

I still ask for critiques today and half of those I throw out the door and the other half I still try to implement. I've learned you can't be everything to everybody. Even Hancock, Fuegen, Fisk, and Dean have people that think they make ugly knives but I don't think they are too worried about it. You have to be your own maker. If you like what you're doing then to hell with the people that don't like it. Just don't close your mind to good constructive criticism from people that might just know what their talking about.

You makers that are really good and too damn worried about what someone says should just gain a realization that you are too good to worry about it. These forums are a give and take and if you want to share your work, expand your market, and take more orders then you have to be ready to take the heat.

And if the heat your taking is from someone that hasn't got a clue then the only one that looks bad is the guy making the comments.

My opinion is bring it on. If you don't like it tell us why, specifically. But be fair. Some of us are in the position that your not going to hurt our business by being unfair, but some guys here that are brand new can really get hurt by unfair remarks.

My last comment is for makers and collectors alike. Those of you in this for fun just have to remember one thing before you post. The guy your about to write about is probably depending on this as his way of life. So you need to be sure your treating him with the respect that he deserves.
 
Kevin Jones said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453628

The above is the thread Bruce refers to. I found Erik's post particularly interesting as it directly follows Bruce's post.

Interesting, yet not surprised as Erik is one of the most positive thinking individuals I have had the pleasure to meet.
If he doesn't become one of the great knifemakers, it will not be because his attitude is not right.

Other new makers could do worst than following his example.



************************
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Thanks for digging that old thread out Kevin. It is the one single thread that just sticks in my mind. I feel that thread has done more to separate the makers from the collectors than any thread Ive ever read. I dont want that separation so what can we do mend all this? Im open for suggestions, I still like you guys.

For anybody who hasnt read it, take a minute to read just a few pages of the 128. Maybe you will see my problem http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453628
 
Bruce, I'm sure that thread pointed out that collectors are a picky bunch, and that each one has certain turn-offs when it comes to knives. This shouldn't be a surprise. I also don't think it should be disheartening for makers, because what some collectors consider to be a turn off, other collectors will like.

If that thread somehow scared a bunch of makers away from the custom forum, I'm not sure how to go about allaying their fears. In my opinion those makers should hang around the custom forum and read what people post in response to the photos of knives that are posted there. I think they will find that for every person like me that posts about not liking brass, there will be many others that like it. The same thing with Spanish notches and certain kinds of handle material. Some people like pattern welded steel, some don't. Those are personal preferences, and are only important when dealing with that person.

Bruce, since you feel that thread is intimidating to many makers, what would you suggest be done to make the custom forum less intimidating?
 
Yes there is such a thing as a "full time professional knifemaker". Many don't have any other source of income. I personally fall into this category, but for me business has never been better, and I was born with a thick skin. However, I don't think that having a thick skin is in any way a prerequisite to being a good knifemaker.

Unfortunately, there are other top notch makers who are having a rough time in this economy and who’s skins may not be so thick right now.

Even the most successful makers do have bad days sometimes....

Bruce, I would just say that these value judgments based solely upon the personal preferences and tastes of the collectors, should just be taken for what they are by makers and other collectors...

I thank all the collectors and enthusiasts who have supported my work over the years. However, the ones who don't care for my style, don’t like me personally and don't intend to buy any knives from me anyway can say whatever they want,… and I'll just try and take that for what it's worth...
 
Bruce I looked at that thread and all I can think is for every person that lists something they don't like there are two more out there that will like it. I think guys like you that make kick ass knives should just build what they like and you're almost guaranteed someone will like it. I look at that thread for trends that seem to be repeated. I tend to take more stock in 12 guys saying the same thing than 50 guys all saying something different.

For example I've seen the comments on Spanish notches. I know a lot of people don't like them, but the knife I'm making I think looks good with it and so I'm doing it. I think it needs it and all I need is one collector that agrees. I think a lot of the rules set here are made to be broken.
 
Hi Bruce,

First of all, thanks for bringing up an example of something you found to be alienating and intimidating rather than merely casting sweeping generalizations. Just as it would be tough to engage in a meaningful assessment of a knife if all someone is willing to say is “I don’t like it, I really don’t!” without giving a single example of what it is they don’t like, so it is also difficult to dialogue with those who criticize the forums yet refuse to give examples of what they feel is very apparently wrong.

I spent yesterday evening reading over that entire “deal breaker thread” trying as best as I could to put myself in your shoes. It took more than a minute, I assure you. It was an instructive exercise in that it reinforced something I am confronted with frequently in my profession: different people perceive the same thing very differently. You get 5 witnesses to a single event, each with the same opportunity and ability to observe, separate them, interview them and you will get 5 different accounts of what they saw. Some differences will be small, some large, but it is all but guaranteed that no two will be the same. Yet the event only happened one way. This is a long way of saying that I perceived that thread very differently from you. I will try to explain what I saw and why.

First of all, you have to assess this thread in context - the premise was a discussion of features that are "deal-breakers" to knife consumers. This is much like a focus group that corporations spend gazillions of dollars to fund: get a bunch of existing and potential customers and let them say - with complete candor - what they like and what they don't. Just pausing here - why wouldn't this topic be of interest to knifemakers? The people posting in that long thread collectively buy a HECK of a lot of knives. Anyway, let's look at some of the items that came into focus in that thread - they can roughly be grouped into three categories: fit / finish; material choice; style preference.

Fit and Finish

  • un-centered blades in folders / blade play
  • "gaposis" - poor fitment of guard / gaps between handle and exposed tang
  • off-centered guard
  • uneven plunge cuts
  • poorly executed satin finish
  • dovetail bolsters that are uneven / don't match
  • visible bad welds in damascus
  • botched / sloppy maker's mark

That's not a complete list, but is representative of the types of fit and finish "deal breakers" that collectors identified. Just looking at it, one might perhas understandably say "these are a bunch of nit-pickers that are impossible to please." Okay fine - but step back, remove the emotion from the equation and ask yourself - are not the JS Test Judges even more exacting? Aren't the MS Test Judges pickers of even finer nits? I think you will agree that they are - and yet you didn't find their standards so intimidating / alienating that you were deterred from submitting your work to their scrutiny. Why is that?

Material Choice

A number of materials came in for mention by varying numbers of participants:

  • giraffe bone
  • brass
  • mokume
  • elephant ivory
  • nikel silver

I think it was pretty clear in its context that these were the personal preferences of individual posters. Some said they liked mokume. :) I can't see what a maker would find alienating about this. At best, it identifies some materials as polarizing and is instructive in that regard. But it doesn't say you can't use those materials. And even if you took it that literally, you could hardly look at that list and say "Oh crap, how will I ever make a knife again??" There are plenty of choices left.

Style.

A few people commented on certain design elements that they did not care for. As above, these were very obviously expressions of personal preference - nobody suggested that they were indicative of a poorly made or flawed knife. They included:

  • full tangs that were not tapered
  • Spanish notches
  • file-worked spines
  • brightly blued fittings

Again, I'm not seeing where offence might be taken, for the same reasons as expressed in the category which preceded this one.

I hope you will take this in the sprit intended Bruce - I have expressed how I perceived that thread and invite you to explain how and why you perceived it in such a negative light. Consider, when reviewing that thread for yourself - the many makers who posted their positive perception of that thread. It can only be beneficial to discuss these things in a candid but respectful fashion.

Roger
 
It would be interesting to see if there is a knife that could be made that isnt mentioned negatively in that thread. I followed it and just shook my head.

I feel like I am representing the makers that lurk but wont post. My 4000 posts are from the Makers Forum. I for one need the collector as I'm full time.

I'm already tired of the Kumbaya sarcasm and hope it stops soon. In the future I hope this forum gets back to normal but with some forethough for makers feelings before pushing the Peply button.
 
Roger, that is a great dissection of that thread. I was going to write something similar but would have been much shorter and less precise. My own dislikes follow very close and I got a lot out of that discussion.

Most of the deal breakers are things makers should avoid anyway, the rest are just personal preferences.

Tai, I'm in the same boat, full time, thick skinned and busier than ever :D
 
Maybe we should have a thread which asks what people DO like. That would be more positive than asking what they DON'T like.
 
Bruce Bump said:
It would be interesting to see if there is a knife that could be made that isnt mentioned negatively in that thread. I followed it and just shook my head. .
Click to expand...

Put another way, for any knife ever made, no matter how superb, it is all but guranteed that there is something that someone won't like about it.

Bruce, why do you find this uniquely alienating, rather than simply emblematic of a universal human truism: "You can't please everybody."

Seriously, I'm not following.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Hi Bruce,

First of all, thanks for bringing up an example of something you found to be alienating and intimidating rather than merely casting sweeping generalizations. Just as it would be tough to engage in a meaningful assessment of a knife if all someone is willing to say is “I don’t like it, I really don’t!” without giving a single example of what it is they don’t like, so it is also difficult to dialogue with those who criticize the forums yet refuse to give examples of what they feel is very apparently wrong.

I spent yesterday evening reading over that entire “deal breaker thread” trying as best as I could to put myself in your shoes. It took more than a minute, I assure you. It was an instructive exercise in that it reinforced something I am confronted with frequently in my profession: different people perceive the same thing very differently. You get 5 witnesses to a single event, each with the same opportunity and ability to observe, separate them, interview them and you will get 5 different accounts of what they saw. Some differences will be small, some large, but it is all but guaranteed that no two will be the same. Yet the event only happened one way. This is a long way of saying that I perceived that thread very differently from you. I will try to explain what I saw and why.

First of all, you have to assess this thread in context - the premise was a discussion of features that are "deal-breakers" to knife consumers. This is much like a focus group that corporations spend gazillions of dollars to fund: get a bunch of existing and potential customers and let them say - with complete candor - what they like and what they don't. Just pausing here - why wouldn't this topic be of interest to knifemakers? The people posting in that long thread collectively buy a HECK of a lot of knives. Anyway, let's look at some of the items that came into focus in that thread - they can roughly be grouped into three categories: fit / finish; material choice; style preference.

Fit and Finish

  • un-centered blades in folders / blade play
  • "gaposis" - poor fitment of guard / gaps between handle and exposed tang
  • off-centered guard
  • uneven plunge cuts
  • poorly executed satin finish
  • dovetail bolsters that are uneven / don't match
  • visible bad welds in damascus
  • botched / sloppy maker's mark

That's not a complete list, but is representative of the types of fit and finish "deal breakers" that collectors identified. Just looking at it, one might perhas understandably say "these are a bunch of nit-pickers that are impossible to please." Okay fine - but step back, remove the emotion from the equation and ask yourself - are not the JS Test Judges even more exacting? Aren't the MS Test Judges pickers of even finer nits? I think you will agree that they are - and yet you didn't find their standards so intimidating / alienating that you were deterred from submitting your work to their scrutiny. Why is that?

Material Choice

A number of materials came in for mention by varying numbers of participants:

  • giraffe bone
  • brass
  • mokume
  • elephant ivory
  • nikel silver

I think it was pretty clear in its context that these were the personal preferences of individual posters. Some said they liked mokume. :) I can't see what a maker would find alienating about this. At best, it identifies some materials as polarizing and is instructive in that regard. But it doesn't say you can't use those materials. And even if you took it that literally, you could hardly look at that list and say "Oh crap, how will I ever make a knife again??" There are plenty of choices left.

Style.

A few people commented on certain design elements that they did not care for. As above, these were very obviously expressions of personal preference - nobody suggested that they were indicative of a poorly made or flawed knife. They included:

  • full tangs that were not tapered
  • Spanish notches
  • file-worked spines
  • brightly blued fittings

Again, I'm not seeing where offence might be taken, for the same reasons as expressed in the category which preceded this one.

I hope you will take this in the sprit intended Bruce - I have expressed how I perceived that thread and invite you to explain how and why you perceived it in such a negative light. Consider, when reviewing that thread for yourself - the many makers who posted their positive perception of that thread. It can only be beneficial to discuss these things in a candid but respectful fashion.

Roger
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Thanks Roger for the positive time you spent here on this subject. I feel if we can get past this problem we can all feel more welcome to discuss ways to make a better knife. We listen to the collectors here and do take it to heart. Thats why our feathers get ruffled at times.

As for the JS and MS judging..We made the best knives we could, paid thousands of dollars to get there and sweated blood while standing outside that door. Many didnt make the grade and were affected trememdously. Many that did make it used most all of the materials and styles that are undesirable in the Deal Breakers thread.
 
RogerP said:
Put another way, for any knife ever made, no matter how superb, it is all but guranteed that there is something that someone won't like about it.

Bruce, why do you find this uniquely alienating, rather than simply emblematic of a universal human truism: "You can't please everybody."

Seriously, I'm not following.

Roger
Click to expand...

Very true. You cant please everyone but they shouldnt start their own thread about it on this forum.

Maybe Im the only one who feels this way. If its just me, Im sorry to waste bandwidth.
 
Roger,

Thanks for your excellent synopsis! Very well done indeed! :thumbup:

I am at a complete loss as to why a maker should have a problem with ANY of the areas of concern. :confused:

P
 
RogerP said:
Dammit Don - there you saying in one line what took me like a whole frikkin' novel! :grumpy: ;)

Roger
Click to expand...

Thanks Roger, I've been called a man of few words and I guess it's true :D

Bruce, you have nothing to worry about. Question, Are you selling every knife you make? Are you having fun? :)

Best critique. If I make a knife that is slow to sell, I will not make another like it.

Just for the record, I've only sold knives to a few of the regulars here. Not the majority. So my positive comments about this forum, are because I enjoy it here, nothing more, nothing less :p
 
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