Critiquing~Is there really a problem?

My take.

There are a million different opinions on any one thing. Everybody has one, even if relatively unformed.

For any particular knife, there will be people who love it, hate it, are blah on it, or any possible position on the scale between those three points.

Any knife, ANY knife, can only be critiqued through the eyes of the beholder. Even if the eyes belong to a so-called "expert".

The beholder brings his/her own specific likes/dislikes to the viewing, which inform the critique. It is unavoidable.

If a maker ASKS for critique, I feel that the only offerings of value will pertain to technical points, not asthetic, as those are completely subjective.

Feedback as to pricing or materials or form/function CAN be of value in a general sense if the maker is trying to find or fill a niche.

But; as soon as someone puts a product out into public view, they must have a bit of a thick skin, because unwanted commentary will almost always be a part of the feedback. It is entirely up to the maker whether they wish to assimilate that feedback, and make changes to the product being offered.

Andy
 
Honestly I'm getting a tad Burnt
The Experiment Idea seems to be in effect everyone has their thinking caps on
and their critical eye focused.. tempered of course.
I can Honestly see why a Fine maker is intimidated..much like oeniphiles it smacks of pretension
I'm all for bettering the forum experience..but if we cant look at a strider custom sword jammy and Tai's poo knife with equal respect..then we're FOS

"I love it Spanish Notch aside..I prefer Ironwood ..no brass please..."
I expect nickel Silver will be on the way out soon too

Raise your Hand who Liked Burts stacked leather handle he offered a few weeks ago...Now if it wasnt Burt?...

This Forum reflects largely a small but not insignificant portion of collectors tastes..its not the Bible take it for what its worth ..agree or not post or not..

It is all Subjective...the Good and the Bad..

Still I must confess its been lively around here of late:p
 
Regarding Bruce's comment about the number of lookers versus the number of comments posted, I have to confess to being someone who just comes to look. I like knives and really like being able to look at a range of handmade/custom work. However, I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to make constructive comments. I try to chip in with an occasional comment about how much a particular knife appeals to me, but mostly I visit this area to relax and enjoy looking at the fine craftsmanship. Thanks to all who take the time to post photos of their work.
 
Kevin Jones said:
At times STeven could probably be a little more tactful in his delivery of critiques, however I would think makers should know by now he has a very direct and no-nonsense style of communicating in these matters which does not reflect the kind and generous person he is.
Click to expand...

I don't see a problem with critique, per se...see a BIG problem with the way it is sometimes given, and a lot more, with how it is taken....at least in the past.

Many threads have been devoted to the electronic dialogue between maker, dealer, collector, lately, all of which, should improve, at least, the expectations of what sort of quality the dialogue should have, which is an improvement, imo....and Tai's was very helpful towards that end.

Tactful? Yeah, I could probably be more tactful. Kevin...but how tactful am I in person? How much do these critiques reflect what I would be likely to say in person, and how likely am I to get in someone's face if they spoke to me in person, the way they do from the safety of the 'net? How does that question reflect the conduct of the rest of you?

What Bruce writes bothers me, but it should be said...for me...it is about "protecting" the collectors, with my stance. All makers, and many forumites instinctively seem to huddle up around the makers who show bad behavior...Roger Linger, Brad Duncan, Tony YSL, Newt Livesay....until they prove a lack of redemption in the eyes of man....there are so many collectors that focus on the good instead of the bad or maybe bad.......there needs to be some degree of balance.......So, if I am PERCEIVED as the "not-tactful, arrogant, punk, egotist,....blah blah diddy frikkin blah, sonofgun, who doesn't play nice with others...but I get the lumpen proletariat thinking about what MIGHT be the truth, or another way to observe what they are seeing...so be it.

Makers need to grow a thick skin, and perservere in the light of adversity..point blank. Because, on the flip side, if a custom knife collector is to perservere, they will have to do it in the light of adversity, as well(like maybe a less than understanding wife, lol)...that is unless they are collecting their own work.;)

AND THIS POST, in this thread, WAS about me, and the relation to critique, but it was about all of you too. I'm not going to make apologies for being educated and happy...that is just not in the cards.

I respected the Foster stacked handle, but it was not my cup o'....told Burt the handle was too long, but other than that, there were pieces that he made I disliked more...Burt listens to all critique, but he listens to himself as well, seems to strike a healthy balance.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
popedandy said:
Regarding Bruce's comment about the number of lookers versus the number of comments posted, I have to confess to being someone who just comes to look. I like knives and really like being able to look at a range of handmade/custom work. However, I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to make constructive comments. I try to chip in with an occasional comment about how much a particular knife appeals to me, but mostly I visit this area to relax and enjoy looking at the fine craftsmanship. Thanks to all who take the time to post photos of their work.
Click to expand...

I'm in this category myself. My lack of comment is in no way a negative. I appreciate the time and effort it takes for makers and collectors to post here. I enjoy being able to view the fine work and learn through the comments and critiques.
 
Bruce Bump said:
It seems that everyone here is way more educated than us so its difficult to put up any kind of argument also. You guys are all accomplished in life and happy but we are just happy to make a knife with no "gaposis". It seems that this particular forum has such high standards that it intimidates most makers. Me included.
Click to expand...

Agreed.


" "Its intimidating to get a hundred "views" and only three or four "replys" so not posting is also a critique. " "

Agreed.
 
Bruce Bump said:
Even poor photos are pointed out here. You guys are a tough bunch to please.
Click to expand...

I point out poor photos because they do an injustice to the knife and to the maker of the knife. Makers should make sure they take good enough photos so that people looking at them can see detail and get a good idea of the quality of the knives being presented. Photos don't have to be Coop, Chuck Ward or Eric Eggly quality, but they should be good enough to let the viewer see detail. It doesn't do maker any good to post lousy images.

Bruce Bump said:
It seems that this particular forum has such high standards that it intimidates most makers. Me included.
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with having high standards. If high standards intimidate makers, I think that's their problem. If the standards are unrealistic, that is another matter all together. I haven't seen unrealisticly high standards being displayed on this forum. Please show examples of what it is you are referring to.



Bruce Bump said:
Yes I think there is a problem. In my case its probally not my work, I feel it is good enough, but the problem is most makers cant just walk in this group and feel at ease.

Its intimidating to get a hundred "views" and only three or four "replys" so not posting is also a critique.
Click to expand...

This one is a real concern to me. If we are indeed that intimidating then maybe that is something that needs to be looked at.

There are many threads where I will go back to look at the photos posted many times before I make a comment. I often have a hard time immediately deciding what I think of a knife and don't want to post something negative that was not exactly what I wanted to get across. Multiple views without comment can mean that the if the people viewing can't say something nice, they aren't saying anything at all, but that is not always the case.

Phillip Patton said:
Makers are just as welcome here as collectors.

If someone is trying to be a jerk, and not offering anything constructive, then we all need to let them know that they are not welcome here.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agee more with both those comments.

Tai Goo said:
What I’ve seen a lot are “value judgments” from collectors based solely on the tastes of the collector,… rather than going to a critical logical analysis of the features of the knife itself and why they feel the way they do about any particular aspect of the knife. When questioned on this it usually goes something like,… “I’ve been collecting knives for 50 years, spend oodles and oodles of money on them, and have this, that and that big name makers in my collection.” In way it implies that if a maker wants to sell knives and be successful they must agree with the collector making the statement.

It’s hard for me to take these kinds of critiques seriously…
Click to expand...

When evaluating from photos, it is very difficult not to do so based solely on personal taste. Without actually handling the knife, evaluations about the quality of the knife are next to impossible to make. I would never want to say that there is something wrong without it either being obvious from looking at the photo, or from actual inspection of the knife. When I give an evalution of what I see in a photograph, it is almost always only going to come from my personal taste.

Hopefully you can take those kinds of evaluations in the way they were intended. Not really to criticize, but more to let the makers know what I would want if I were to have them make me a knife.
 
Makers,
If you don't feel comfortable posting your pictures here how can you ever get the courage to set up at a show where every flaw and error can easily be seen in the flesh?

Instead of looking at this forum as free advertising, it should really be approached as a free "focus group". Whether you like it or not, we are your core customer. This forum, and others like it do have the ability to "make markets". Embrace that instead of fearing it.

Work in progree pieces are nice too as we can see how these things come together.
For example, Bailey's WIP spread on the parrakeet dagger moved him up a notch in my eyes, thats for certain, and he was pretty high up there already.

Bruce,
You are well known for pistol knives. Some collectors think that is your forte'. A WIP tutorial on how you make one would be fascinating. It would take a lot of time for you to photograph it, etc, but I think people would get a truer feel or the time and toil that goes into your pieces.
 
I think things are gettin way too serious as far as people precenting their views on knives is concerned. Seeing knives and commenting on them is the reason that I enjoy this forum as much as I do. As far as I am concerned, as long as folks aren't being jerks about the way they critique knives, then all is good. Just treat the person posting the knife photos in the way you would want them to treat you, and everything should be just fine.
 
Kohai999 said:
Tactful? Yeah, I could probably be more tactful. Kevin...but how tactful am I in person? How much do these critiques reflect what I would be likely to say in person, and how likely am I to get in someone's face if they spoke to me in person, the way they do from the safety of the 'net? How does that question reflect the conduct of the rest of you?
Click to expand...

STeven touches on the "...safety of the 'net". We do have to remember where we are. Not judging in a room full of knives like the judges do at Blade Show for best of the best. Then, those who judge may have to defend their critique face to face with a maker.

I know we all understand the difference of making an opinon from an image to as opposed to handling the graded knife.

Using a forum on the internet allows anybody to critique without having to face anyone, or have to prove anything by doing so.

This needs to be realized, IMO, before getting worked up over certain comments online.


- Joe
 
How much here is for fun and how much for business?

I can only imagine being critiqued in a way where i felt naked, THIS is what a public forum brings.. every conceivable response, and no accounting. By its very nature, a wild gamble ride.

I posted an article the other day telling Anthony he was a perfect match for Zsa Zsa Gabor. And, he took it seriously.

There are fights here every day, amongst the most vocal-experts here. Is it a hostile place? ..SURE it is! Lots of fighting, over "the definition of is", .. Jerry Springer, trash beatdowns over knives.

How many times has someone made reference to getting their popcorn ready?

I just may be feeling pessimistic, but i fail to see -apart from banning everyone- how it will ever be an ideal place/ welcoming and non-intimidating.. academic style atmosphere. Sounds good, but Were not that smart, ..well, speaking for myself (only), i'm not. :)

Ask yourselves (collectors), -"IF this were a business to me- would i ever feel comfortable here, posting/getting feedback"?

How does one say it (having redness-of-the-neck) ?...
"Naw!!" .. O hellnaw.
David
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I think things are gettin way too serious as far as people precenting their views on knives is concerned. Seeing knives and commenting on them is the reason that I enjoy this forum as much as I do. As far as I am concerned, as long as folks aren't being jerks about the way they critique knives, then all is good. Just treat the person posting the knife photos in the way you would want them to treat you, and everything should be just fine.
Click to expand...

Good sense from Montgomery. Again.

Roger
 
I started posting knives here within a year of beginning and never gave it a second thought. I enjoyed posting and took some good and bad while discarding the BS. I would much prefer "I like/dislike with a reason" vs "YOU ROCK!!".

A part timers POV....
Brett
 
I would hate to think that knife enthusiasts would turn into a bunch of "wine tasters" that you could blindfold and present a glass of reconstituted horse piss and they would find it had a quite "nutty" flavor. In knife making you either innovate or imitate. There are people the world over selling Bob Loveless clones.Some of them might have better fit and finish than Bob's knives if you were to "critique" them. However there is not one of them that would claim to be in Bob's league. I had rather tell a maker he is " coming right along " than tell him he has " a long way to go ".


Johnny
 
It's important for makers to remember that just because someone has tons of money to spend on custom knives, and has done so for a long time, and won't balk at sharing their opinions publicly, does not mean said collector has good taste. Or that they ever will.
 
Lorien said:
It's important for makers to remember that just because someone has tons of money to spend on custom knives, and has done so for a long time, and won't balk at sharing their opinions publicly, does not mean said collector has good taste. Or that they ever will.
Click to expand...

Sorry for intruding.

Thanks,
brett
 
I'll bet most knifemakers don't have a lot of money to spend on ANYTHING, except putting food on their family's table.

In general, could it be a 'class' issue?

:confused:
 
Lorien said:
I'll bet most knifemakers don't have a lot of money to spend on ANYTHING, except putting food on their family's table.

In general, could it be a 'class' issue?

:confused:
Click to expand...

Sorry for intruding here. I should have deleted this post also.

sorry,
Brett
 
Lorien said:
I'll bet most knifemakers don't have a lot of money to spend on ANYTHING, except putting food on their family's table.

In general, could it be a 'class' issue?

:confused:
Click to expand...

I think you nailed it! :)


Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone's singing lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbayah

Someone's laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone's crying, lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone's praying, lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone's sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top