CRK vs. Customs

S

squid meat

Joined
Jun 20, 2001
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OK, I know that the Sebenza gets a lot of thread time here at BF. I own two myself, and use and love them both. But, if I were to pony the $$ for a custom, would I be dissapointed with QC, fit / finish when compared to a CRK ? I 'am thinking of going for a knife by D. Ralph, or maybe order a TNT from Mr. Mayo, I also like what I've seen from A.T. Barr and his knives. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Also, This is not intended to insult or otherwise upset anyone, just curious about other BF bubbas and their thoughts on this subject.
Thank You, Stinky:)
 
I don't think that you have anything to worry about. Both Darrel Ralph and Tom Mayo make framelocks that function very similarly to the Sebenza, so I don't think that that would be much of a change for you. A.T. Barr makes liner locks, and his knives are wonderful, but have a different feel from framelocks. If you can, check out a knife show or two and maybe you can see some of these custom knives up close. That would help you make up your mind.
 
I love customs and CRK's myself.

Both Mayo and Ralph make great knives and you can't go wrong. They are as strong as a CRK with more character.

The thing you will notice with any custom maker is that the knives will vary from piece to piece where with "The Reeve" every one is described simply enough by saying Sebenza.

I have found that there are a decent amount of QC issues from custom makers, enough that I noticed. Early on I almost gave up customs all together because I hit a bad spell of blade play problems, some from very well known makers. I said, WTF I should just stick to Sebenza's. But I stuck it out and have found that the majority of customs out there are excellent knives, some makers hit the nail on the head every time, some seem to hit it 95% and some less.

The only knife from DDR I have owned is still, and will remain in my collection for a long time. IMO it's what custom knives are all about. The two TNT's I've had were flawless as well.

I think every knife person who get's into customs just has to find his comfort zone. I've found mine for sure.

If you don't mind, I would suggest checking out a knife by Mike Obenauf as your first venture into customs. The price is right (at or less than a Sebenza) and he makes a blade every bit as good as a Sebenza IMO. Play with it, love it, sleep with it and then move on to the more expensive pieces.

If you decide to go with a knife from DDR or Tom you can't go wrong either. I've never owned an AT Barr so I can't really comment there.

Good luck and have fun!
 
Drop Hoss an Email. He has a great folder for sale, that you'd like a lot. You can trust him 100%.
 
The knives I've seen or owned/own from DDR and Mayo have had fit 'n finish as good as the CRKs I've owned or own.

I have not handled a Barr, but Obenauf is on my very short list.
 
First I love the Sebenza. Great knife and I own and use a few. (I am in the office today and am carrying a Umfaan right now).

Here is the "but,". When I hear folks comparing them to Customs I wonder what customs they are talking about. The is no comparison to the makers you are thinking of. Their knives will be smoother than any Sebenza I have handled, more ergonomic and made with what I believe are better choices of steel.

These guys who say the Sebenza compares above any custom they have handled are not looking at the same customs I do :D. When I hear that the Sebenza is buttery smooth, since none of my 4 are, I have to conclude that the writer does not know what buttery smooth really is.
(I can hardly feel any friction whatsoever in knives that I call buttery smooth, that is not the case with my Sebenzas which exibit a great deal more friction that a buttery smooth knife.)

I do agree that given an equal price range in many cases (not all) the Sebenza would turn out to be a better knife than might be found the the custom market again at the same price range in the majority of cases.

When compared to a Mayo, Ralph, Carson, AT etc (meaning any the folks out there making top shelf custom using knives) we are talking better quality and ergonomics.

I am not bashing Sebenza's here (I would not own 4 if I felt that way), but I am relaying my experience in comparing Sebenza to customs.
 
Gus... I do agree with your "buttery smooth" comments. You are right, good customs do feel more "buttery" than Sebenza. But there is something about opening a Sebenza. Maybe its just the consistent, smoothness with just that little bit of friction that makes it a great knife to open and use. It is hard too explain. There is just a certain feel to a Sebenza.

But I get your drift on customs and how they feel. Plus... with a custom I believe you do get a bit more personality in the knife. If you stick with the top makers you shouldn't be sorry.

Plus...once you go custom, your Sebenza turns into a $300 "beater" knife. ;) Now that's what makes us all crazy people.

JT
 
Call me crazy but my small wood inlay is as smooth as 95% of the customs I have owned felt or played with. And more smooth than several. The 5% would be the bearing pivot systems and a select few others.

I would agree with the rest of my CRK's not being as smooth.

IMO, an argument could also be made for BG-42 vs D2 which is very common now in custom knives. (I have at least 6 customs in D2)

6ALv Titanium, is there a better titanium?

Personally I prefer a tighter action, I don't want a knife that flys open easily or risks snapping closed before I can get my finger from the liner. So I tighten all of my pieces down considerably more then they arrive usually. This is why I don't like the bearing pivots, YMMV.

Of all the custom knives I own and have owned the Seb hung in there for overall quality and workmanship. I've had $500 custom knives I would not give you my plain classic Seb for, I've had $300 custom knives that I'd give you two Sebs for if I had to(Obenauf ;)).

Regardless of where opinion lies I think most people would agree that customs definitley have a wrap on character and the ability to "have it your way".

I just can't be sold on the idea that any custom is better than a Sebenza, no matter how hard I try. And that's coming from someone who loves & prefers custom knives.
 
Originally posted by JTurner
Once you go custom, your Sebenza turns into a $300 "beater" knife. ;) Now that's what makes us all crazy people.

JT
Click to expand...

Guilty, as charged.

I think that Gus has nailed the place that the Sebenza holds in the market very well, with the execption being that CRK's change to CPM S30V might cheer him up ;)
 
I agree, can't wait to check out the 30V version :D

Could not agree with you more JT. (Including the crazy people part).
Some of my friends look at me like I am nuts when I pull a nice knife out of my pocket (many times it might be a Sebenza:). When they as how much, I have learned to say "you do not want to know".:D

I love using my all Sebenzas (all but the pinstripe damascus one) That blade design is one of the best of any knife as far as performance. After handling a Mnandi a few months ago I will end up with one of those also one day soon.

Never the less it does drive me crazy when folks state that the Sebenza is better than any custom knife they have handled. My point is that they need to handle a wider variety of customs. BTW there are some makers getting started that make folders in the price range of a Sebenza that are doing great work (cp nailed one :). No one can take away the fact that benza is a great knife, but a comparison to a well made custom just is not fair (to the benza) other than to use the benza as a benchmark. There will be plenty of customs that will fall below that mark, but the better ones will show through way above in my opinion.
 
It is a tribute to what Chris Reeve has achieved with his Sebenzas that they are compared here to customs, and for once it is nice to not read any gray t*rd bashing. I guess it takes a crowd that knows custom quality to best appreciate the precision of a Sebenza. As Mr. Kalanzis has stated, the Sebenza can certainly hold its own to customs at its price level, and may in fact be better made than most of them at that.
It would be grossly unfair to compare a Sebenza to a Ron Lake Interframe at 10 times the price, but the fact is that making such a comparison does not shame the Sebbie! Rather, it allows us to appreciate what the ultimate in craftsmanship and precision can be.
It is food for thought, then, that none other than Ron Lake himself has stated that the Sebenza is "better than custom quality."
 
A good question

I love the edge put on the sebenza by CRK and the framelock is my favorite lock. I give Chris Reeve many kudos for developing and popularizing it. The QC is excellent but I agree with Gus, the two sebenzas I have owned have been nice but no where as smooth as a good custom. They are also rather plain.

A good custom knife by a quality maker will exceed the QC, smoothness, and the aesthetic appeal of most any sebenza (well the wood ones may be an exception). I do not like the bead blast applied to CRK knives as it scratches too easily and I don't like how it feels in my hand. One of mine also had the unfortunate habit of opening up once in a while in my pocket and being tip up that was a recipe for disaster. I prefer tip down.

I really wanted the sebenza to be "the one" but I did not develop any lasting attachment to them and ended up trading them away. Sebebzas are good, solidly built knives but if I am going to spend $300+ on a pocket knife (that is scary to type! what if my wife reads that!! :p :rolleyes: :eek: ) I am going to get one that tickles my fancy a little more.

ps the switch to s30v is a good move by CRK, however a 3v or s30v one piece line would be GREAT.
 
When you say "compared to a well made custom" I agree 100% that the Sebenza comes out behind.

I also agree 100% that my Sebenza's have sat in my knife chest a great deal since I have been swinging more towards customs.

My main point was (and is) that people should not say any custom is better than a Sebenza, it's just not true. If that was the case I would have sold off my last 3 Sebenza's and 1 Umfaan to buy more customs :)

On a side note, 6 months ago I was in the camp of people who felt a liner lock was no where near the strength of a frame lock. Since then I have purchased liner locks from Obenauf, Marzitelli, Munroe, Anderson and others that has changed my opinion. Some may argue.

- Bandaidman, I don't know if my wood inlay is indicative of all wood's or just happens to be a very smooth one, I've never felt another Seb as smooth as it, and I've had 25 or so in my hands at one time or another. Unfortunately it's the only wood I've ever sampled..
 
I have to say that my Sabenzas are great folders. And they are better than any other commercial folder I own except maybe my Emersons. But they are not as nice as some of my custom knives, even some of the customs that cost less then the CRKs. One rather inexpensive maker that is turning out really high quality folders (liner locks) is Peter Marker from Australia. I think his knives are among the best bargains out ther right now. Another young maker doing really nice folders is Ron Leuschen from Little Hen Knives. He's going to be one to watch in the future IMHO.
 
I'm going to have to agree with cpirtle on this one, as it's a subject we've discussed at length.

I have had about a handful of customs from the big names that were pretty disappointing from a purely QC perspective, that's just a fact. It may not be popular to express that around these parts, but it's the truth. I don't think that any maker is above having a couple of pieces that aren't his best sneak out. They're human, and that's certainly never meant that I wouldn't buy from them again. Plus, most makers are more than happy to have another shot at getting something the way you want it if you ask them to. That's part of the appeal, the relationship between the maker and the customer.

But to say one would *never* see a QC issue from the popular makers is a fallacy. Sorry, KWM, I just can't agree 100% with your statement. Hey, I'm a fan too, but I cannot honestly say that every custom I've ever had was at the same level of fit and finish as the average Sebenza. Again, these are human beings making these things, and most of the time I quite like the character that's only found in customs. It's something that a preprogrammed machine cranking out the exact same pattern every time will never quite match.

Flame away, but it's just not a true statement to say that all custom makers' work never exhibit QC issues. Again, I don't think that's a damning statement at all. The balance is that because of the relationship that can be had with the makers, you're bound to get it made right and then some.

There's a certain maker out there who is at the top of his game nowadays, but a few years back was just starting to get really popular on the forums. I bought two of his early pieces, and while I got weak in the knees just looking at how gorgeous they were, I was disappointed to find pivot pins backing out of the handles, way too thin and uneven grinds, and sundry other items that for me were very disappointing. I was deathly afraid of offending the maker, but I sent one back to him, and he made it right. No questions asked, no problems. Since then, I've kept a close eye on his stuff, and I can honestly say the difference in his QC from three years ago until today is staggering. It's been great fun watching his work improve and seeing his popularity explode. I don't think I'd ever have that kind of relationship or feeling of involvement with a Sebenza.

There are many, many, many customs out there that would make a Sebenza seem pretty low-end, but not all of them.

Firebat
 
Interesting topic........

I bought my first Sebenza four years ago. I brought it home and looked at it for many days, wondering how I could justify the investment. Well, I eventually returned it and got a refund from my kind dealer. Well, as of last year, I probably had a half dozen variations of Sebenzas in my line up! Chris, in my estimation, put the lock and blade orientation in the correct spot. With the tip up positioning and the clip running parallel to the lock bar, your grip plays a very integral part in the saftey of the Sebenza: The hardeer you grip the knife, the tighter the lock. I also like the serrations on the back of the thumb ramp. It really places the hand in a secure push stoke. The Sebenza is a GREAT utility knife!

But, after using them for some time now, I must say that I don't find BG-42 that attractive. I am a professional wood worker and carpenter.
I cut a lot of junk most of you guys don't encounter and its very abrading to edges. So after constantly having to touch up my edges on my Sebenzas, I jumped into the custom arena. And my motivation was to find a superior steel ( I am planning on buying a new Sebenza in S30V in February) My favorite steel for edge retention is D2 and 52100. My first D2 custom was a Dozier Tab lock. Great cutting blade, but I wasn't overly impressed with the tab lock system.
So this fall I ordered many customs--DDR D2 EDC, a Dunn Practical Tactical, Duncan Whiplash and some Obenaufs in D2. I actually have a large Obenauf # 2 in my back pocket. Firebat and cpirtle are Obenauf fans, too. Mike's fit and finish is second to none. I'm sure Kit's influence has rubbed off. The only thing that Mike needs to improve on is repetitive blade grinds. After he does 50 to 100 more knives, his grinds ought to be right up there in quality. Not to say that my #2 isn't usable--it is VERY usable. But visually, his blades are satin finished, and grinding imperfections show up moreso than blades that are heavily bead blasted.

The Obenauf is a keeper for me. As far as the other customs that I bought this fall and winter, The DDR EDc is a fantastic knife, fit and finish is excellent, but it doesn't fit my hand :( .
And the Dunn is ALSO fantastic knife. A true example from a MS. But I'm not enamored with the placement of the pocket clip:( .
So here I sit with about $1000 worth of Customs that will either collect dust, or hopefully I can trade someday. Anyone out there with an "extra" JW Smith PT? ;)

A comment about QC. When a maker breaks on to the scene, regardless of his craft, it usually takes a dedicated effort over the years to excell at that craft. Very few people that I know have earned an excellent reputation in the first couple of years of operation. Like I said, it often takes many years to earn the right to be reffered as a Master Craftsman. Norm Abram, from "This Old House" is a Master Carpenter. That's a 20 year achievement, folks. I could give you more examples, but I think you get my point.

Enoiugh band width from me.

Good luck on your decision. Lots of great Knives out there! Fun stuff!

Barry H
 
Might as well throw in my opinion...

The sebbie is a great $175 production knife, the only bad thing is it costs $345.

There are too many high quality custom makers at the same price point or lower then the sebbie for me to go with. Mike Obenauf and Alan Folts immediately come to mind. The best thing about customs, you can have it your way. You can choose different blade steels, different handle materials, different finishes, different handle shapes if needed... the lists goes on. The best part of dealing with a custom maker is just that, working with the maker. Discussing what you want YOUR knife to be. It's not a knife rolling off an assembly line, it's your knife being built for you. That is why I haven't bought a production knife in over a year... although I think I am picking up a Spydie or 2 today.

JR
 
First off... I don't think any high-end production knife is worth its list price. Is a BM 710 worth the $180 BM lists it for? I am not sure top of the line customs are really $600 dollar knives. But if you want them and want to work with the maker you have to pay.

But come on Jeremy -- calling a Sebenza a $175 knife, oh man -- it blows away anything at that price. Plus... if you are looking, there is no need to pay over $300 for a plain Sebenza. In fact, you shouldn't be paying list for any production and even some customs. If you are you are getting ripped all over the place.

Thats what the "For sale" forums are for. There the Sebenza is a $250 dollar or even less knife and worth every penny at that price

JT
 
Originally posted by Jeremy Reynolds
Might as well throw in my opinion...

The sebbie is a great $175 production knife, the only bad thing is it costs $345.
Click to expand...

:confused: :rolleyes: Show me a $175 knife that's better? Don't turn this into an Anti-Sebenza battle, we've all been there before. ;)

I do agree with the "have it your way" statement, people mention that a lot.

The problem with that is that many makers don't like doing 100% custom orders, they will "customize" a model or make it to order. That's not every one mind you, but many.

Ordering direct customs may not work for everyone who wants one. I personally have only "ordered" a couple from makers, I buy most of mine from dealers like Bladeart, AZCK or Phoenix Blades. When you shop in that style it's still a take what you get type of experience. Not bad, just less choices.
 
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